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[Robmay]

Okay. I have been pondering this for a while. I currently have a stock 2010 Ultra classic that has an engine upgrade to a 103 (stage 2??). I have had this in the mountain area three times now. It seems to me that the newer (wider) frame with "more clearance" scrapes the floorboard bracket moreso then my 07 did. Way more.

I also seem to have a heat issue that I cannot get dialed out. I have tried the HD race tuner and was told it will not override the new computer in the bike as far as keeping it cool. So I switched to the TTS. Seemed better for a while, but still have a radiating heat issue on mainly the right side. I tried removing the cat and again was told by a reputable tuner that because of the sensor location this would not work properly as far as the tuner went (mixed readings without the CAT). So I now have true duals (BUB's) which helped some but not much. I have dialed my AF ratio all the way to 12.7. Ran cool for about 150 miles or so then back to hot again. Gas mileage dropped to about 35-36 mpg (from about 39-40) and now seems to be back up again close to the 39 range.

Also, my front end feels bumpy and wobbly in a tight curve. Checked the neack bearing grease, tire, tire pressure etc. to no avail. Dealer "cannot duplicate". Decel wobble periodically as well. I noticed the tire differences (front) between my buddies 08 and my 10. Big difference. His is 16" while mine is 17". His has a noticable and measurable amount of more rubber on the road. His sidewalls do not fall sharpley (almost to a point) like mine. When I go into a tight corner my bike seems to "fall" into it. which makes it feel unstable.

My questions:

1. Scraping - Is there anyone that has had a pre 09 frame that now has a 09-10 frame that can help me understand this? Is there anything that can be done to help it?

2. Fall away - I think this could be remedied by installing a 16 tire and wheel on the front. Can this be done without messing anything else up? Does anyone make a wheel setup that will allow a front 16" ABS wheel and the 16" wider wheel for the rear of the 10?

3. Heat issue - does the new computer (ECM??) on these bikes not allow any tuner to move the AF ratio outside the closed loop bias? Seems to me the changes take effect only to return to stoke (closed loop) after it "re-learns".

Thanks!

Rob

[BigLew55]

2. Fall away - I think this could be remedied by installing a 16 tire and wheel on the front. Can this be done without messing anything else up? Does anyone make a wheel setup that will allow a front 16" ABS wheel and the 16" wider wheel for the rear of the 10?

You might know this already, but the FLHRC still has a 16"/16" tire combo, even on the '09-up.  As far  as I know, the D408F is only available in WWW for this set-up though.

[Heatwave]

Okay. I have been pondering this for a while. I currently have a stock 2010 Ultra classic that has an engine upgrade to a 103 (stage 2??). I have had this in the mountain area three times now. It seems to me that the newer (wider) frame with "more clearance" scrapes the floorboard bracket moreso then my 07 did. Way more.

I also seem to have a heat issue that I cannot get dialed out. I have tried the HD race tuner and was told it will not override the new computer in the bike as far as keeping it cool. So I switched to the TTS. Seemed better for a while, but still have a radiating heat issue on mainly the right side. I tried removing the cat and again was told by a reputable tuner that because of the sensor location this would not work properly as far as the tuner went (mixed readings without the CAT). So I now have true duals (BUB's) which helped some but not much. I have dialed my AF ratio all the way to 12.7. Ran cool for about 150 miles or so then back to hot again. Gas mileage dropped to about 35-36 mpg (from about 39-40) and now seems to be back up again close to the 39 range.

Also, my front end feels bumpy and wobbly in a tight curve. Checked the neack bearing grease, tire, tire pressure etc. to no avail. Dealer "cannot duplicate". Decel wobble periodically as well. I noticed the tire differences (front) between my buddies 08 and my 10. Big difference. His is 16" while mine is 17". His has a noticable and measurable amount of more rubber on the road. His sidewalls do not fall sharpley (almost to a point) like mine. When I go into a tight corner my bike seems to "fall" into it. which makes it feel unstable.

My questions:

1. Scraping - Is there anyone that has had a pre 09 frame that now has a 09-10 frame that can help me understand this? Is there anything that can be done to help it?

2. Fall away - I think this could be remedied by installing a 16 tire and wheel on the front. Can this be done without messing anything else up? Does anyone make a wheel setup that will allow a front 16" ABS wheel and the 16" wider wheel for the rear of the 10?

3. Heat issue - does the new computer (ECM??) on these bikes not allow any tuner to move the AF ratio outside the closed loop bias? Seems to me the changes take effect only to return to stoke (closed loop) after it "re-learns".

Thanks!

Rob

Did you bike this bike new or used? I'm very surprised to hear you're scraping floorboards. I have a FatBoy and have melted the edges of both floorboards so I tend to lean hard in turns. On my 2010 SEUltra it has been next to impossible to scrape floorboards. While I have done it a couple of times it has to be a tight turn at speed with a sloping roadway to get the floorboards to touch and mine are extended out and forward 1" so I would think they would scrape more than the stock FB position. If the bike was bought used, is it possible the previous owner lowered it?

You're definitely getting some bad advice relative to "cooling" the bike. First you absolutely will need to get rid of the stock header or at least the Cat in that header to reduce the heat on the right side of the bike. Most aftermarket pipes have bungs for the O2 sensors that are specific to your bike and will not interfere at all with the operation of the bike other than to cool it down by eliminating the Cat. You'll need a tuner to cool it further and once again you've received bad advice. Either TTS or the SEPST can easily do the job but it depends on the knowledge of the tuner (or yourself if you want to tune the bike yourself to perform better and run cooler).

For the most part I tune my 2010 SEUC myself with the SEPST. It's relatively easy to tune the bike using the SMARTTUNE feature with just a little experience and a reasonably good starting map. There are a few tricks to cool it even further since the software limits the AFR to no lower than 14.3 (in certain areas of the map) if you want to stay in closed loop mode. SEPST is easily fooled by getting the bike to first run well using Smarttune. Once you're satisfied with the throttle responsiveness and the acceleration, just lower the size of the injectors and the ECU will be tricked into increasing the injector pulse rate even though it's still in closed loop. You'll notice an immediate drop in temp and also an increase in performance since you'll actually be running at a lower AFR (richer). Decrease the injector in small increments to find the right balance of "coolness" vs "performance" vs "fuel economy".

I really don't understand what you are referring to with "Fall Away". I find the 2010 SE Ultra to be an outstanding handling bike and far better than my softtail. Most smaller more nimble bikes struggle to stay with me and several other guys running '09+ Touring bikes once we get to the twisties. Handling is generally considered a forte of your '10 Ultra, so something doesn't sound right with the concerns you're sharing.

[guppytrash]

3. Heat issue - does the new computer (ECM??) on these bikes not allow any tuner to move the AF ratio outside the closed loop bias? Seems to me the changes take effect only to return to stoke (closed loop) after it "re-learns".

Thanks!

Rob

Trying to do my own research using info supplied here and other sites, my thoughts are in closed loop the tuners are not able to change the AFR rich enough to actually cool these motors because of the HD O2 sensors.   I think that is why you are seeing the auto-tune systems using different O2 sensors.  Both the PCV auto-tune and the Thundermax auto-tune use "wide band O2 sensors". 
Tread lightly on this subject though it can put you in the line of fire, especially here at CVOharley. 

[Heatwave]

Trying to do my own research using info supplied here and other sites, my thoughts are in closed loop the tuners are not able to change the AFR rich enough to actually cool these motors because of the HD O2 sensors.   I think that is why you are seeing the auto-tune systems using different O2 sensors.  Both the PCV auto-tune and the Thundermax auto-tune use "wide band O2 sensors".  
Tread lightly on this subject though it can put you in the line of fire, especially here at CVOharley.  

That's a good summary. The SEPST will not allow the AFR to drop below 14.3 without dropping out of closed loop. You can try to reduce the range of cells in closed loop by lower them below 14.3, but if you take the entire map out of closed loop, the O2 sensors will kick out a trouble code since they are essentially turned off.

Closed loop at 14.3 is not necessarily a bad thing (although it's clearly lean in order to meet emissions standards). However you can still have a very throttle-responsive bike that performs outstanding even though some areas of the map are in closed loop. The areas in closed loop are generally at idle and in the low load areas of the map generally below 4000 rpms (although this varies based on the engine map template you start with).

The higher the performance of the engine, the smaller the area of the map that is within a closed loop "region". This closed loop region of the map does have the advantage of enabling the bike to run better in different weather and altitude conditions when compared to altitude/weather under which the bike was originally tuned. Also by having the cruising range running at 14.3 you will have an outstanding gas tank range combined with outstanding performance when you "jump on it" which pushes the ECU into the region of the map that is not restricted to closed loop performance at 14.3.

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing and is helpful interms of explaing some basics for the SEPST anyways. Lot's of other tricks I've learned along the way that have really made the bike perform outstanding vs the original map that came from the tuning at my dealer. Lowering the size of the injector is an easy method to reduce the heat of the engine. Just remember, if you lower the injector size and then attempt to use Smarttune to tune the bike, the software will attempt to reverse the your efforts in an attempt to get the tune back to 14.3 (in the closed loop region).

[Opossum]

I changed out the head pipe completely, went with the Fullsac "X" pipe.  Was told by differant people that if you just cut the CAT out that the 02 sensors would "cross talk" not good.  The had ED at the Dyno Difference 
( http://thedynodifference.com/ ) tune it.  Ed is knowledgeable his custom map is burned right to the ECM using Dyna Link software, no box nor autotune nuthin but screamin performance, excellent gas mileage ( even after 80) and rode home yesterday in 107 temp, hell ya it was hot but nuthin like before heat GONE!  as for scrapping,  just got back from riddin Beartooth, Cheif Joesph, Needles etc, it was just the boyz so we got to really exercise the scooters, didn't scrape the boards ONCE (ground the little demon bell in half, but never touched the brackets.  If that trip was on the 08 or the 03 those brackets woulda been worn in half.  The handling problem I had sounded just like yours,  I found 9 oz of wheel weight on the rear tire on only one side, took it to the shop and they couldn't get the tire to balance, they called HD and got the OK for a new tire balanced just fine and tightened up the neck bearing just in case and turned her into a sweetheart, even when thrashin 'er in the twisties handled better than any bike I've EVER ridden ( over 450 lbs)  Who woulda thunk that the rear tire would produce inputs to the front end???  This is ONLY my experience but I gotta say everything is in tune and fine as wine, I just wish I could ride her to her capcity!     

[Dan_Lockwood]

I have a '09 SERG with the CAT removed, 2" Fullsac baffles and TTS Mastertune with Fullsac canned MAP from their testing.  I've not run the auto tune yet and may not.

At first my bike was a freak'n heat factory.  When I cut open the header pipe and knocked out the CAT and rewelded the chamber, I install all the other stuff at the same time.  At the speed the exhaust come through the pipes and the placement of the O2 sensors, I'm thinking that mixing or reversion of the exhaust in the collector is not a big problem.  If you look "inside" the stock pipe on a '09, the O2 sensors look very close but the front inner pipe comes way inside the collector to keep things separated.  I think in '10 they shifted it even more so I would really not be worried about taking out the CAT.  BUT... You've already gone to true dual so that's a dead issue now.

I had a '08 SERK with a PCIII with V&H Dresser Dual with their Oval mufflers and a SE-AC installed.  This ran good but only got mid 30's for gas mileage.

My '09 SERG with the Fullsac stuff runs way cooler and I get from mid to high 40's for mileage and most of that is two up.

I'm not sure about open or closed loop operation on my bike, but I do know that it does run better than my dyno tuned '08 SERK.


My wife said that on the '08 SERK I rode a bit to aggressive for her and rubbed the running boards a few times.  On the '09 SERG she says that I ride way more aggressive than I used to and I've never hit my running boards on the '09 with the new touring frame.  I do believe though that my more aggressive riding is due to the improved confidence I have on the new touring frame.

My SERG has 18" front and rear and I see not negative issues with them on my bike for my riding style.

In general I'm very happy with the new frame and my '09 SERG.  I wish the motor has less noise in the upper end, but I may address that this winter with some mods.

Rob, good luck with your issues.

[doubledown]

I had an 06 Streeglide that would wallow in high speed corners, the frame was lacking. I traded it for my 09 SERG the frame is a huge improvement over the old one.


 As far as dragging the floor boards the two seem about the same but I threw a set of 13" works performance shocks on it (in place of the 12" factory air shocks) and the cornering angle is much better now, and the ride is night and day over stock.


  As far as the heat thing my 110 was a scorcher, Fullsac pipes and a TTS tune cut the heat down big time.

[kraut]

@Rob:

do you have the standard floorboard brackets or the chromed, rounded version the CVOs get? The standard version will give you quite less clearance.

[Robmay]

@Rob:

do you have the standard floorboard brackets or the chromed, rounded version the CVOs get? The standard version will give you quite less clearance.

Ding ding ding!! I think that is it. I had 2 different friends, one with a CVO Roadglide and one with a CVO Ultra send me pictures from under their floorboards and it is different. The CVO's bracket runs more parallel to the frame. The stock (like mine) juts out more. This is mainly what I scrape more so than the floorboard itself. Mostly in tight, tight uphill or downhill curves. Even my wife notices the difference in how the bike handles and rides. As she put it earlier "we've been on the Dragon twice in the past with different bikes and it was always a joy. Now it scares me. I feel like the bike is going to slide out from under us".

I wonder if it is the neck bearing.

I did buy the bike new. I have progressive 440's on the rear (long ones). I removed the cat from the original exhaust first and the sensors are much closer together on the 2010's.

[kraut]

check the neck bearing as described here.

Check your tires for maximum pressure and cupping, have them balanced.

If that doesn't help suspension is under suspect.

Your bike by all means should handle significantly stiffer and easier in turns as your 07 did.

[Robmay]

check the neck bearing as described here.

Check your tires for maximum pressure and cupping, have them balanced.

If that doesn't help suspension is under suspect.

Your bike by all means should handle significantly stiffer and easier in turns as your 07 did.

Looking at the neck bearing adjustment sheet you provided, reminded me of something and prompted another question.

If you are replacing the fork springs, would you have to mess with the neck bearing at all? My dealer replaced my fork springs with an upgraded version from progressive that I purchased.

[Heatwave]

Looking at the neck bearing adjustment sheet you provided, reminded me of something and prompted another question.

If you are replacing the fork springs, would you have to mess with the neck bearing at all? My dealer replaced my fork springs with an upgraded version from progressive that I purchased.

I think you just found the source of your issues. Replacing the front fork springs can definitely change both handling and clearance characteristics. It sounds as though the change you made was not for the better.

[kraut]

that may well be the cause indeed.

[Robmay]

I think you are both correct. While out today we got to talking to an HD tech about the handling issues. He mentioned the same thing you did HW. The progressive springs are tighter so it will may it stiffer or sportier. Got to running a time line on it. The very first time I rode in the mountains was a month after I bought it. Had Bitubo's on the rear and stock springs on the front. Don't remember any issues. Changed to Progressives on the rear a month after that (didn't understand how to adjust the three settings on the Bitubo's) so I could have a more simple adjustment. The dealership installed the front springs a couple of months later for me.

Now the decision: spend $2600.00 on new suspension at Traxxion (front and rear), change the brackets on the floorboards to the cvo (which may take changing the boards as well?? ), have my Corbin seat reworked some (long story but part of the issue as well), or....buy a new CVO RG? 

Guess I could have much bigger "problems"...