Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I spent the last three days at the V-Twin expo in Cinci.

The most interesting thing that I saw at the show was from Steve Cole.

We have ALL bitched about base calibrations...  the cams that we try to 'tune' do not truly match the base cals.  This has generated untold number of threads, etc.  For the first time, we will have a tool that lets us manipulate the base cals themselves... 'The Hidden Settings".

On the next update, TTS will start MT8 files.  This round of things will allow a 'tuner' to adjust a base cal to match the cam installed, while it is in the engine and running.  This will allow us to be able to 'set the cam to the base cal' using the ACTUAL engine being tuned and NOT the secretive 'specs' put out by cam companies.

Bobby Woods, Andrews, SE, and I think S&S gave Steve the real deal on those best kept secrets and from that... made a new tool.  Run the 'tool' and you can adjust the base cal to the ACTUAL installed open and close of the intake for ANY cam.  THAT will, in turn, adjust those pesky 'hidden setting' to the cam one is tuning.

I played with it, while Steve guided me through.  For a DIY, it will be a bitch, but probably doable.  For a dyno operator, it will be a cake walk.

I am going to quote Steve, "I will never have to make another base calibration, again'.

This IS going to get interesting and will allow us to bitch and fight for years to come with the folks that favor the other systems.   :hyst: :hyst:

There is somewhat of a downside to the MT8s.  Once one installs an MT8 file... a dealer can NOT flash the ECM back to stock... it won't work.  The ONLY way to flash back is using Mastertune to flash back.  Steve dumbed it down for me...  There are three sections to our ECM basically.  One is the sections that contain the VEs, timing, AFRs, etc.  The next section contains all the 'running' operational crap for the whole bike that may not even be engine related like interfacing the TSSM, for example.  Last section is the 'toggle' section where the same ecm can run a bagger or a dyna, by having the factory simply toggle inner 'options' on/off.

To make the MT8s work?  Steve had to take pieces from the here-to-for 'untouchable' areas to gain more computing power from the ECM, and once changed... the dealer's Digital Tech, etc, will NOT recognize the ecm, because it is no longer formatted the exact same.   To me?  I could care less about that, but others might.

Also, the is a new pair of 'constants' called EGR that can be used to even out the VEs at lower rpms.  Steve didn't explain all of this to me, but I am sure the manual will.

The cam selection tool works like this...  for the cam intake OPENING event.... one does a data run with the bike in idle....  go back and look at the data in datamaster and pull down a 'view box' for camshaft and one sees a plotted graph.  Where the graph make a break away from straight line... THAT is the 'number' of you cam intake opening.  Like for example 2, or 3, or 4, or 5.  Pick the right opening and tune the bike.  All that is needed is a stable idle.

For intake close... it is way harder for DIY...  the bike must be run at 3500 rpm, and steadily increase the MAP from low to high.  THIS graph MUST be a straight line increase in MAP.  From THAT run, one runs the datamaster and plots the close of the cam.   Us DIYs will have to talk a bunch and come up with a way to make this kind of run.  That's the hard part as I see it.

Steve will include in the new manual the 'numbers' for a host of the popular cams from the MFGs I listed above.  For example... a 54 has an open of 3 and a close of 3.  So... for those that don't wish to run the calculator tool... if your cam from Woods, Andrews, SE and S&S is listed?  It could be short cutted to you throw the numbers in that Steve provides.  Other cams... one should run the tool.

Steve said I was permitted to post this.

[SBB]

From Bangladesh to Cinci, that's a long way to travel for a show.

                                     

SBB

[Buckeye_Tuning]

It was too cold to ride the bike, too!!!

[MikeV]

Thanks for the great report wurk_truk it sounds very interesting. Are there any manuals or documentation released on the new software yet?

MikeV

[FLTRI]

Nice Job Truk!!!!

A little on what we learned about the Hurricane 120r:
Steve Cole (TTS) and I met with Carl and Casey Wenger and looked at their pipe. NICE looking piece!!

When asked where the O2 bungs were Casey informed us that Craig Walters, the builder who tuned it, didn't choose to use closed loop, but Wegner has asked Steve to help them to properly locate and develop closed loop calibrations for this build.

Unfortunately the current calibration in the bike was basically done for WOT power and doesn't run very well anywhere else.

Casey mentioned it scared him when he started it and tried to ride it into the trailor, popping and banging from lack of low rpm tuning.
So we'll see how the engine runs after a proper street tune using closed loop for cruise.

Should be a sweet runner once tuned for rideabilty as well as power.

Also this pipe doesn't conform to the HD ground clearance test due to it hanging about 1" below the frame, but not sure it matters to those who pay the BIG $ for it.

Spoke with the pipe builder and he is in development of some nice heat shields for it, but the piecemeal shields they had at the show are well...a bit messy. Bits and pieces.

We have a couple of these builds coming in and will probably not opt for the pipe, due to cost.

Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

The Chinese make a Harley conversion to change rear end into a paddle and the front into DUAL skis.  It's a biatch... but if one stays at 40-50 mph it will float and run.  I take the pacific way so I can stop off in Honolulu for a bit.   Using the cruise control helps quite a lot!!!  I'm thinking of a trike conversion for my bike... that way I would have DUAL paddles to match the front end.

I'm REALLY wondering what oil I should use for these trips, tho.

[hogsty]

Thanks, wurk_truk.  Good to see you here.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Thanks Hogsty!!!!!

After I looked around, I saw that I have quite a few friends that hang out here.  Really a nice site.

One thing more... Steve just stated that with an MT8 calibration installed... a dealer will still be able to look at all the diagnostic codes, etc in the ECM.  The dealer simply cannot change the calibration is all.

[strokerjlk]

Nice Job Truk!!!!

A little on what we learned about the Hurricane 120r:
Steve Cole (TTS) and I met with Carl and Casey Wenger and looked at their pipe. NICE looking piece!!

When asked where the O2 bungs were Casey informed us that Craig Walters, the builder who tuned it, didn't choose to use closed loop, but Wegner has asked Steve to help them to properly locate and develop closed loop calibrations for this build.

Unfortunately the current calibration in the bike was basically done for WOT power and doesn't run very well anywhere else.

Casey mentioned it scared him when he started it and tried to ride it into the trailor, popping and banging from lack of low rpm tuning.
So we'll see how the engine runs after a proper street tune using closed loop for cruise.




Should be a sweet runner once tuned for rideabilty as well as power.

Also this pipe doesn't conform to the HD ground clearance test due to it hanging about 1" below the frame, but not sure it matters to those who pay the BIG $ for it.

Spoke with the pipe builder and he is in development of some nice heat shields for it, but the piecemeal shields they had at the show are well...a bit messy. Bits and pieces.

We have a couple of these builds coming in and will probably not opt for the pipe, due to cost.

Bob

funny the pipe had bungs in it. Craig used them to tune it. it was tuned open loop. bike was ridden to sturgis and back without problems . the only complaint was it has a lot of valve train noise,and ran hot ,on a 108 deg day.
Craig.casey,Carl all work for the MOCO ...funny they would ask Steve to help them. 

[Steve Cole]

funny the pipe had bungs in it. Craig used them to tune it. it was tuned open loop. bike was ridden to sturgis and back without problems . the only complaint was it has a lot of valve train noise,and ran hot ,on a 108 deg day.
Craig.casey,Carl all work for the MOCO ...funny they would ask Steve to help them. 

See there you go again making up claims that are not true. Not one of those people is an HD employee, they are all outside contractors. Not one of those people have ever worked in the calibration department or the emissions department at HD or for HD, none of them have done that type work. None of them has any experience locating or testing O2 sensor position or response times. Craig is a good engine builder but he does not calibrate the EFI for or at HD. He uses the same tool as the rest of you can buy from HD. For the record we were hired by HD to do calibration work for them as an outside contractor, so I've know Craig for a long time (1996) and rest assured he never did any final calibration work, he develops engine components and does rough tuning, mainly WOT. All WOT tuning is open loop so big surprise on that one. All calibration work is all handled by someone else. Carl and Casey owners of Wegner Motorsports asked for help because they know me from other projects and I told them anything I could do to help them as they are friends. As for what they chose to do or not its up to them but I've already forwarded them some base starting information. Remember the pipes they make and sell are Wegner Motorsports pipes NOT HD pipes!

[strokerjlk]

See there you go again making up claims that are not true. Not one of those people is an HD employee, they are all outside contractors. Not one of those people have ever worked in the calibration department or the emissions department at HD or for HD, none of them have done that type work. None of them has any experience locating or testing O2 sensor position or response times. Craig is a good engine builder but he does not calibrate the EFI for or at HD. He uses the same tool as the rest of you can buy from HD. For the record we were hired by HD to do calibration work for them as an outside contractor, so I've know Craig for a long time (1996) and rest assured he never did any final calibration work, he develops engine components and does rough tuning, mainly WOT. All WOT tuning is open loop so big surprise on that one. All calibration work is all handled by someone else. Carl and Casey owners of Wegner Motorsports asked for help because they know me from other projects and I told them anything I could do to help them as they are friends. As for what they chose to do or not its up to them but I've already forwarded them some base starting information. Remember the pipes they make and sell are Wegner Motorsports pipes NOT HD pipes!

I didnt make anything up. yes they are contractors for Harley ,so that means they WORK for HD. they CNC port all the SE heads except the MVA heads. yes Craig did mention you LOL. I never said there pipes were HD pipes. but they did say the bungs were designed as the factory bungs. I spoke with them about bung placement. later on when I took wurk truk over there he spoke with them as well,about the bungs. so how did it happen you two didnt see the bungs?  The Bike in question is owned by the MOCO. why would they need your help? get real!

the claims that are not true ....are the ones posted by your boy. this has been copied and pasted on several forums. complete BS. the Bike ran fine to sturgis and back.
just keeping it HONEST

[Steve Cole]

OK if you didn't make it up then you must have had one hell of a dream. Craig Walters has never been a tuner for HD in any way shape or form but you claim he is, that's your first story. Second, You stated they (the bungs) were designed by the factory on another forum now you say "as factory bungs" neither of which is a true statement from you. Third, the pipe on the floor had bungs welded where the heat shields would normally go, how many people would buy that? As for the bike in the booth if you bothered to check with most all the displays with OEM looking bikes they were most all on loan from HD or an HD dealership, so does that make you feel better. Now when it comes to asking for help why would they not. You just have been spreading your BS for so long you do not know when to stop! What's the next set of stories going to be! As for Bob's statements that's what they said when we were there in there booth and when they talked with me a second time. The bike in there booth ran like chit as it was only open loop tuned by Craig for WOT. They were quite honest that it had not been tuned for anything other than WOT power and that there pipe design was done for nothing other than WOT power as well.

Sure is funny that when you check the calibrations supplied by HD in the super tuner they are all CLOSED LOOP tunes for the 120R applications but if anyone believed your BS they should all be open loop, howcome they are NOT?

[naitram]

ok guys let it go. you are obviously never going to agree with each other

[dlaws01]

Naitram, they have agreed to disagree.  Now they are of one accord.

[cvobiker]

ok guys let it go. you are obviously never going to agree with each other

I agree,,, there is another less enjoyable forums that allow an open play ground. (IMO) .... Take it, and keep it over there.... I certainly hate to see this tit-tat stuff  start over here.....