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[Rimjam]

Rod's Performance in Hanceville, AL is one of the better tuners here in the south.  They cannot, however, get the fuel ratio on my 2000 SERG better than 14.8:1 or 15:1 even with a new Power Commander.  Rod has the fuel setting "wide open", there are no engine codes & still the fuel won't richen to where he wants it.  The engine is a mostly stock 95" Magnetti Marelli FI with only Andrews 37G cams & K&N filter.  When I asked if the same problem had cropped up before Rod said "only on big inch motors and we fixed them with a carb".  I prefer to stay stock if possible.  Anyone have a problem getting the fuel up on a Magnetti Marelli equipped engine?

Returned to Rod's for a second time  -  lean fuel problem is now SOLVED with a different Power Commander unit.  We may never know what the problem was with the first unit because it checked OK on the computer but would not richen the fuel adequately. 

[Twolanerider]

Have used Power Commanders on several M&M bikes.  Never experienced anything at all like what you're describing.  Do you have the Power Commander III or the Power Commander EX?

[hd-dude]

Where is the lean condition? WOT runs?

Have they checked for Intake Leaks?

Has the dyno's Air Fuel Monitor been cleaned and or calibrated recently? I have witnessed a dirty AF unit on a dyno give eroneous readings on more than  one occation.

[Twolanerider]

Where is the lean condition? WOT runs?

Have they checked for Intake Leaks?

Has the dyno's Air Fuel Monitor been cleaned and or calibrated recently? I have witnessed a dirty AF unit on a dyno give eroneous readings on more than  one occation.

Jim, I've never seen a Power Commander EX used on anything earlier than an 07.  On an older bike that doesn't have o2 sensors does the EX version still have the same limitations and locked out RPM ranges that it does on the new models?

[hawgzilla]

You state that you have a good tuner but he doesn't know how to get more fuel to the engine??     Assuming the fuel pressure is up to specs, the choices are larger fuel injectors or a higher pressure fuel pressure regulator.

[grc]

You state that you have a good tuner but he doesn't know how to get more fuel to the engine??     Assuming the fuel pressure is up to specs, the choices are larger fuel injectors or a higher pressure fuel pressure regulator.

My thoughts exactly.  I guess some people consider anyone who knows how to hook the bike up to a dyno and create nice looking charts to be a "good tuner".    And I tend to consider that comment about fixing other bikes with a similar problem by converting to a carburetor to be a big tipoff as to the true capabilities of the person making that statement.  The M&M system has plenty of issues, but someone who understands them can make them work just fine.

Time for a second opinion from a "better tuner", IMHO.


Jerry

[Twolanerider]

Aside from the problems with the dyno itself Jim suggested checking if they're trying to use the 50 state legal Power Commander EX rather than a Power Commander III that could be an issue also.  The EX units I've seen block out a large block of RPM range and don't accept changes within that range.  So you're stuck with whatever is the base map for most of the normal cruising range.

Have no idea which Power Commander the gentleman is using.  It was just another thought for consideration.  The one thing it's not, however, is some failure of ability of the M&M system.  While there may be some specific failure the problem being described is not a systemic M&M problem.  They can be made to run just fine.

[Twolanerider]

  Assuming the fuel pressure is up to specs, the choices are larger fuel injectors or a higher pressure fuel pressure regulator.

With the engine spec's he cited neither larger injectors nor a higher pressure regulator are necessary to get satisfactory fuel to the engine.  The stock regulator might have some problem.  But working correctly it would supply the motor as he's detailed its spec's.

[Midnight Rider]

Rod tuned both of my '06 bikes with a Power Commander, and did a good job on both bikes...one an SEUC and the other a SEVROD.  He's done quite a few other friends of mine bikes as well.

Having said that, all that happened a few years back, so who knows now.  But, the guy is no dummy about tuning, but if he doesn't want to take the time to troubleshoot the problem, I'd be both surprised, and consider taking the bike somewhere else.  Rod is also a "recommended" TTS tuner, according to the TTS site.

I know absolutely nothing about the MM system...but Rod has been around quite a few years, so it would surprise me that he would be unfamiliar with the MM...then again, he may not have worked on a whole lot of them...this is Alabama, you know.

Odd...

[ultrafxr]

I agree with TC.  Rod has not tuned any of my bikes but he has tuned bikes for several friends and I have been to his shop several times.  He impressed me as being quite knowledgeable and very thorough.  Something tells me there is more to this story.

[strokerjlk]

Did he run it witth a fuel pressure gauge on it?
sounds like weak pressure to me.

[Rimjam]

Talked w/ Rod yesterday.  He's familiar with the two different Power Commanders & would never use the EX on anything he didn't have to.  The lean condition occurs in mid range or 'cruise'.  There are no intake leaks, the dyno itself has no issues.  He says he is able to read the sensors in 'real time' & they are within spec.  I did not ask him about fuel pressure but will after today's dyno run.

[cherryseeg2]

I'm pretty sure that I read that he is Bob Woods go to man for efi tuning so I'm sure if Bob trust him he's more than capable of a great tune.

[Rimjam]

Picked up the SERG from Rod's to ride a few days.  Still lean fuel ratio at partial throttle.  Rod says of the dozens of M&M fuel inj. bikes he's tuned mine is only the third he couldn't adjust.  Even with the Power Commander set to 100% fuel the bike still runs lean.  At WOT it runs great.  He has changed the ECM, injectors, & throttle position sensor.  The fuel pressure is good.  He's looked at all the J 1850 data line (whatever that is, tuner lingo) & everything looked good.  Now he's convinced it has something to do with fuel delivery upstream from where he's plugged into the system.  Has anyone had a problem with the check valves in the tank?

[Godeater]

Well sounds like he has checked everything, which means at least to me that something was missed.  I never had a problem with mine before I changed to the HPI intake except for the a few intake leaks, which M&M's are known for.  I have never had a problem since changing out the intake. I would be like to know how it runs without the PC on it?  Did he check the firmware on the PC? Every now and then we get one that has been sitting around somewhere, or fell under a shelf somewhere and has a old vintage of firmware.  I have tuned many mags as well, and if there is something different or not tuning right there is an issue, you just have to find it.  Almost all tuning issues I have ever had with the mags are intake related. Would also ask if its lean only on one cyl? It is fairly easy to sniff each cyl and see, if there is a big difference.  Do you have duals or 2 into one?  I run a 62psi regulator on mine with stock pump and the biggest vrod screamin eagle inj and have no problems.  I forget what stock reg is, like 40-42 psi I think.  Also look for a leak in the fuel lines in the tank, I have seen this cause all kinds of weirdness on both mags and delphi bikes.  The lines are left long servicing so the rub on the insides of tanks and you get pin hole leaks.  Thats reaching but what the heck.