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[Midnight Rider]

I'm not going to pretend to know squat about EPA regulations and whether or not there are differences for motorcycles vs autos, liquid vs air-cooled, etc...  I am curious what you would consider a more appealing, faster, better running stock motorcycle brand.  When I was getting into riding, there just seemed to be nothing comparable, for style and relative performance anyway.  To be honest, I haven't looked at much else since I bought a Harley 10 years ago.  

Subjectively, that's a loaded statement.  Nothing can compare directly to a HD because, as far as I know, nobody else makes a 45 degree pushrod engine.  Styling, and what appeals to any given individual, is another ballgame entirely.  And when you factor in cost, then you're in another ballpark.  I can make one relatively close comparison, although it's like comparing apples to tomatoes, but I've owned this bike (an '06 model), so can comment on it at least.  Look at a Yamaha Stratoliner...113" 48 degree V-Twin, claimed 91HP/117TQ at 2500 RPM (TQ), 4 pushrod activated valves per cylinder, 2 Throttle bodies, 2 plugs per cylinder, blah, blah, blah.  You may consder it butt ugly, but that is a matter of personal taste. All for an MSRP of $17,490, and you can absolutely get one for much less than that.  http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/products/modelhome/634/0/home.aspx

Don't get me wrong, I love my CVO, and certainly nobody makes anything to compare directly to it, but there are certainly alternatives out there that run faster, meet EPA requirements, and don't have to be modified to run "properly".  And they are air cooled.  Another would be Victory...fine motorcycles.  http://www.polarisindustries.com/en-us/Victory-Motorcycles/2011/Ness-Signature/Cory-Ness-Cross-Country/Pages/Overview.aspx    A damn fine looking bike, to me.  None of these bikes has what most consider to be a "soul" like HD, but that is a feeling and not something objectively comparable.

So, it ain't the EPA that's the problem...it's HD's unwillingness to do what they need to do to meet the same, exact guidelines every other motorcycle manufacturer has to meet, and provide buyers with, basically, what they are paying good money for.  I am NOT bashing HD...hell, I just paid 35K for one...but it can be done without dramatically compromising the "look and feel".

[michaelbmenaker]

With all respect, that is BS.  The EPA sets the regulations equally for all motorcycles, and it's up to the various manufacturer's to come up with acceptable performance while meeting the regulations.  Harley has never made a serious effort to come up with stock calibrations that run smoothly without hiccups, and they purposely underpower their bikes to encourage spending tons of money to make them somewhat competitive with other companies stock offerings.

I always wonder how people who blame the EPA for the sorry state of affairs at Harley reconcile that with the performance they can get in the automotive arena right off the showroom floor, while those vehicles meet MUCH stricter standards than H-D ever dreamed of.  Go into a Ford dealer and drive a Cobra Mustang or a Chevy dealer and drive a Corvette, then tell me their performance sucks.


Jerry

Jerry,
Got to call BS on you...
If you accept that Harley, for marketing and reasons of tradition (pretty much the same thing) must stay with air-cooled twins. Then you can blame the EPA. Two valve, pushrod, large displacements V-twins have to run hot if set up lean enough to meet EPA regs. ALL you examples are water-cooled.

[SBB]

Don't blame Harley, it's the EPA

With all respect, that is BS.  The EPA sets the regulations equally for all motorcycles, and it's up to the various manufacturer's to come up with acceptable performance while meeting the regulations.  Harley has never made a serious effort to come up with stock calibrations that run smoothly without hiccups, and they purposely underpower their bikes to encourage spending tons of money to make them somewhat competitive with other companies stock offerings.

I always wonder how people who blame the EPA for the sorry state of affairs at Harley reconcile that with the performance they can get in the automotive arena right off the showroom floor, while those vehicles meet MUCH stricter standards than H-D ever dreamed of.  Go into a Ford dealer and drive a Cobra Mustang or a Chevy dealer and drive a Corvette, then tell me their performance sucks.
Jerry

Thank you Jerry.
I saw that earlier and wanted to comment.
What I believe is that in the late 80's and all through the 90's when EVO's were rocking and rolling out to the dealers the Motor Company was taking the money and padding managements pockets. Instead of investing a substantial part of the profits on engineering, design or plant modernization like the Japanese and European manufacturers, the Motor Company was passing out bonuses. That mentality is why it took 25+ years to upgrade a frame, why the Motor Company can't build an aircooled motor that doesn't fry your legs. The profits of past years is gone and now to maintain our addiction we spend our hard earned money to make right what should have been right to start with.
If blame is to be cast, the EPA is not the problem the problem is Harley Davidson.

SBB

[Midnight Rider]

Having said that, I've got almost 4K worth of "non stock" parts on my '11 SERGU...and counting...  But, I knew that going in...It's not really rational thought, but it is what it is.

[1sharprdkg]

With all respect, that is BS.  The EPA sets the regulations equally for all motorcycles, and it's up to the various manufacturer's to come up with acceptable performance while meeting the regulations.  Harley has never made a serious effort to come up with stock calibrations that run smoothly without hiccups, and they purposely underpower their bikes to encourage spending tons of money to make them somewhat competitive with other companies stock offerings.

I always wonder how people who blame the EPA for the sorry state of affairs at Harley reconcile that with the performance they can get in the automotive arena right off the showroom floor, while those vehicles meet MUCH stricter standards than H-D ever dreamed of.  Go into a Ford dealer and drive a Cobra Mustang or a Chevy dealer and drive a Corvette, then tell me their performance sucks.


Jerry

X3 

[RedDevil]

IMO EPA rules notwithstanding, I don't care what type of vehicle you buy, air-cooled, air/oil-cooled or water-cooled, when your sitting at a stoplight, or driving in stop and go traffic in 90+ degree weather, it's going to get hot!!  I've had air-cooled bikes for most of my riding life, but I strayed for awhile and had a water-cooled Wing and BMW. The wing would throw some hellacious heat up at me when I was in stop and go traffic during the summer, and the BMW K100 I had, well let's put it this way, I got rid of it because it would nearly cook "the boys" every time I rode it.  Why do I change out the pipes and mufflers?  Because I don't like the sound of the stock Harley.  I'm not a numbers chaser, so it's not for increase HP or TQ.  It's purely what I want my bike to sound like.  I've done that with every HD, I've owned since 1980.  First thing off is the pipes/mufflers and aftermarkets get put on.  To be honest, I don't think my SESG or SERGU is noticeably hotter than my 02 88" Ultra was in 90+ degree weather and stopped at a stop sign or in stop and go traffic.  I remember many a summer day "frying" in the saddle of my 02 while stopped in traffic.  Of course this is just my opinion and may not necessarily be that of anyone else.

[kraut]

Hmmm, if I had intended to ride a stock bike I had bought a BMW.

None of my Harleys was unmodified when I took her over. And the more you learn about those bikes the more tiny little things come to your mind to get optimized.

There is a guy in town I meet every couple of weeks who rides the same bike - but entirely stock. Whenever I look at his bike I think by myself: "No, you would not even consider taking this bike from the dealers parking lot ..."

But suum cuique 

[Half_Crazy]

Stock ANYTHING just plain sucks.

I had my truck about a week before it had aftermarket exhaust, cold air intake, a fuel controller, and 20" x 9" rims/tires on it.

I voided the warranty on the bike's engine 3 months into owning it.

The only thing stock around here is my wife's 'toaster' and that's only because I don't drive it.

[spydglide]

Having said that, I've got almost 4K worth of "non stock" parts on my '11 SERGU...and counting...  But, I knew that going in...It's not really rational thought, but it is what it is.

And you've tried the 'better bikes', but returned to the fold.     har.  spyder

[RPR50]

I think what's slipping in here is personal taste on what it ought to run and sound like. I'm no expert, but I'm into my second CVO, and got my first experience at cams, pistons, heads, roller rockers and all that just behind me. I couldnt have lived with the stock exhaust. The rest was my desire to explore possibilities. If I built a bike for the masses, I'd build it mid-range and let the owner go from there.  Maybe my expectations are low, but both my stock CVOs, my need for exhaust note aside, were just fine. Hot, yep. But I'm sitting on top of an engine in the heat.

[Heatwave]

I think what's slipping in here is personal taste on what it ought to run and sound like. I'm no expert, but I'm into my second CVO, and got my first experience at cams, pistons, heads, roller rockers and all that just behind me. I couldnt have lived with the stock exhaust. The rest was my desire to explore possibilities. If I built a bike for the masses, I'd build it mid-range and let the owner go from there.  Maybe my expectations are low, but both my stock CVOs, my need for exhaust note aside, were just fine. Hot, yep. But I'm sitting on top of an engine in the heat.

But it doesn't have to be hot. The OP was asking if the bike should remain stock. I (and many others) believe that the heat can be easily remedied with a replacement catless exhaust and a tuner that will allow the fuel map to be fully adjusted. There's absolutely no reason why anyone should spend $35K and then have to suffer with unnecessary heat on their leg. These bikes can be easily modified to produce a far cooler bike and one that can remain at idle in hot temps without  broiling your right leg. The only thing you give up is some fuel economy and the bucks for the exhaust tune upgrade. I think anyone that elects to remain with the stock tune and stock pipes is really missing out on fully enjoying their investment in an otherwise excellent bike.

My bike after a professional tune, now runs incredibly cool. In fact I just came back from a 1900 mile trip (Laconia) and not once did I ever feel the heat of the exhaust on my leg. If you're prepared to spend $30K+ on a motorcycle, you should at least be able to be comfortable while riding it.

[kraut]

as to the results of a good tune: we were on a 2.000 m trip together with another FLHTCUSE4, both catless, same exhaust, almost the same load, one a little more modified (high comp etc) and manually tuned, the other one more or less stock and "smarttuned" by the dealer. Difference in engine oil temp almost under all conditions between 5 and 10 Celsius - the manually tuned bike ran cooler and still didn't use significantly more fuel 

Nice experience as the "cooler" bike was mine 

[Jerry/MD]

IMO EPA rules notwithstanding, I don't care what type of vehicle you buy, air-cooled, air/oil-cooled or water-cooled, when your sitting at a stoplight, or driving in stop and go traffic in 90+ degree weather, it's going to get hot!!  I've had air-cooled bikes for most of my riding life, but I strayed for awhile and had a water-cooled Wing and BMW. The wing would throw some hellacious heat up at me when I was in stop and go traffic during the summer, and the BMW K100 I had, well let's put it this way, I got rid of it because it would nearly cook "the boys" every time I rode it.  Why do I change out the pipes and mufflers?  Because I don't like the sound of the stock Harley.  I'm not a numbers chaser, so it's not for increase HP or TQ.  It's purely what I want my bike to sound like.  I've done that with every HD, I've owned since 1980.  First thing off is the pipes/mufflers and aftermarkets get put on.  To be honest, I don't think my SESG or SERGU is noticeably hotter than my 02 88" Ultra was in 90+ degree weather and stopped at a stop sign or in stop and go traffic.  I remember many a summer day "frying" in the saddle of my 02 while stopped in traffic.  Of course this is just my opinion and may not necessarily be that of anyone else.

That is true. But, I prefer a medium cooked right calf over one that is well done! 

[grc]

Jerry,
Got to call BS on you...
If you accept that Harley, for marketing and reasons of tradition (pretty much the same thing) must stay with air-cooled twins. Then you can blame the EPA. Two valve, pushrod, large displacements V-twins have to run hot if set up lean enough to meet EPA regs. ALL you examples are water-cooled.

I gave you a couple examples of water cooled automobiles which meet much tougher standards than what Harley has to meet.  If you like, you can find plenty of examples of air cooled engines that meet the same standards as Harley but they do it without all the crappy driveability and performance problems Harley makes standard.  They also do it without selling you illegal tampering devices and parts to "fix" the problems they purposely pawn off.  Go by a BMW dealer and ride one of their air cooled bikes, or Honda, or Yamaha, or Victory, or whoever else out there that I can't remember at the moment.

The EPA has cut a ton of slack for H-D for decades, but eventually everyone has to comply with the law.  When only one company seems to have insurmountable issues, that tells me it isn't the regulation, it's that company.

BTW, as Red Devil mentioned in his post, and as I've mentioned in several other threads, Harley isn't the only engine out there that runs hot.  All internal combustion engines produce heat in large quantities, and much of that heat is waste heat.  Water cooled engines also run hot, and if anyone doesn't believe that I suggest they take their car out on the highway for about 30 miles at speed, then pull off the road, pop the hood, and sit on top of the engine.  Try not to burn your butt off.

The heat issue is a two parter, and some folks around here seem to get the two parts mixed up.  One is the reliability issue, where running excessively high combustion chamber temps affects the parts negatively (when the materials and designs aren't up to the task).  The other is rider comfort, which is more of a proximity and shielding issue.  Face it, the bigger the engines get the more heat they produce and the more they radiate that heat onto nearby objects like your legs.  That is true if the engine meets EPA standards or not.  Hot is hot, and the difference between 1000 degree pipes and 1400 degree pipes isn't the main problem.  Both will burn the snot out of you, and wise folks will avoid both.  The folks at H-D could have helped isolate the riders from much of the extra heat with better designs and shielding, but those things cost money and might mess with Willy G.'s idea of style.  I'd like to know how you blame that on the EPA.

If someone really wants cooler, they could dig up an old Pan or Shovel and restore it.  They didn't make enough power to generate much heat, so the obsession with heat should be satisfied.  They also ran really rich and dirty, and leaked oil like a sieve, and weren't terribly reliable, but by god they ran "cooler".


Jerry

[Heatwave]

I run the DJ Powervision and have the the gauges up that display Engine temps at all times. When I run the map from before the tuning vs the map after tuning, there is a 20-25degree difference from the cooling effect of the additional fuel at idle. That was enough to convince me that anyone believing that an air-cooled bike must run hot, simply doesn't understand how much difference in both performance and cooling you get from a properly tuned motor that's less focused on meeting EPA standards and more focused on both the owner's comfort and improved engine performance from a stop.