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[Grizzly]

I know a guy that got a ticket in PA (New Hope) for having a non DOT helmet after he crossed back in too PA from NJ. How can you get a ticket for a non DOT helmet when you don't even have to wear one in PA?

Must have been a slow day, I guess??? 

[grc]

I know a guy that got a ticket in PA (New Hope) for having a non DOT helmet after he crossed back in too PA from NJ. How can you get a ticket for a non DOT helmet when you don't even have to wear one in PA?

Good question.  Did he bother to ask the officer, or was this written by a NJ officer in "hot pursuit"?  If written by a PA officer, it should be real easy to get the ticket tossed.


Jerry

[2harleys]

I know a guy that got a ticket in PA (New Hope) for having a non DOT helmet after he crossed back in too PA from NJ. How can you get a ticket for a non DOT helmet when you don't even have to wear one in PA?

Was he under 21 years old?  PA has a goofy helmet law for those under 21.  They think you can only "choose" if you are over 21, even though you can "choose" to fight for your country and vote at 18


NOT FREE, SEMI-FREE AND
100% FREE STATES
Of the fifty states, only 4 are 100% helmet law free! :

Colorado, Illinois, Iowa and New Hampshire
You can click on each or any of these states and read how they obtained and maintain their freedom.

Of the other 46 states, 20 have full helmet laws for all motorcycle riders:

Alabama, California, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Washington and West Virginia.
You can click on each or any of these states and read the statute, the regulation defining what constitutes a "safety helmet" and our suggestions about how to best attack the statute in court.

19 States have helmet laws that exempt adult riders, riders over the age of majority -- 18 years old and over. Those states are:


Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah, Wisconsin and Wyoming.
You can click on each or any of these states and read the statute, the regulation defining what constitutes and "safety helmet" and our suggestions about how to best attack the statute in court.

There are 7 states that discriminate against adult bikers between the ages of 18 and 20. How bikers ever got involved in discriminating against their own kind (just younger) is beyond our comprehension. Those embarassments to the community are:

Arkansas (*), Florida, Kentucky (*), Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Texas (*).
The theory has been expressed that drawing the line at 21 is "politically expedient" -- which means that there are supposed to be some legislators who would vote for freeing adult riders over 21, but who would not vote to free adult riders between the ages of 18 and 20. We have not been able to locate any of these particular legislators, but we are sure they exist. (Arkansas won their "victory" in 1997 by a better than 2-1 vote for the modification; a margin which would only have been needed to override a veto by the Governor, which there was no chance they would face. It is not even possible that if the so-called rights organizations had held to the principle that all adults are free, or none, that the bill would not have passed as easily. In other words, they sold out their younger brothers for NOTHING!)

* - The most controversial compromise -- some call it necessary, some insidious -- of them all is the insurance compromise. This new trend came to us from the great state of Texas in 1997, compliments of NCOM, and is the reported brainchild of Richard Lester and his AIM attorneys -- the folks that also brought us the "leg-off" cases against Harley Davidson Motorcycles, Inc. -- which only goes to show what happens when you let somebody that don't know chit about riding a motorcycle, make decisions for the community. And, before you get too excited about the prospects for bringing this legislation to your particular state, think about what you're saying. The "public burden theory" is just that, a baseless theory, until we start to apologize with such spineless concessions. Sometimes freedom for ourselves comes at a cost to others, and unless they are willing to live by your compromise, don't . . . God hates cowards. --quig

[Midnight Rider]

I guess it's the same "logic" that raised the minimum age to purchase alcohol to a Federally Mandated age 21, unless the state was willing to give up Federal funding.  Ronald Reagan signed that into law in 1984.  You can VOTE at 18, join the military at 18 (in 1969 I could have been forced into military service at age 18), get married at 18...the list goes on.  That doesn't make much sense either, but nobody seems to get in a wad about it.

[Keats]

This is where I would part ways with my "right to chose".

I do belive that younger riders make more bad deisions,

(many would argue that riding without is a bad descision at any age)
and I would not be in favor of letting them chose.

Call it "age" warfare, but I do not trust their judgement.

The hypocrisy of it all,
 I  have drawn an arbitrary line knowing that some 18 year olds are mature enough to make their own decisions and feel most are not, and I know plenty of 25 year olds that cannot handle responsibility.

If left to me that line would be raised to 25,
from my experience, still arbitrary though.

My kids have grown up wearing seatbelts 100% of the time and have never questioned their participation.

I would never let them ride without a helmet, if I had a say.

[grc]

Sadly, while some kids are quite mature even at 16, other's remain immature all the way into their 30's or 40's.  It's got a whole lot more to do with things other than age.  

Personally, I think requiring safety equipment for hazardous endeavors, not just motorcycles, is probably a good idea.  For instance, helmets, gloves, and knee/elbow pads for skateboarding are a good idea.  But actually requiring the stuff can easily backfire.  I see kids wearing the gear voluntarily around this area, and I'm assuming it has to do with marketing.  Buy a board, and the shop also sells the Shaun White branded pads and gear to go with it.  Make it "cool" looking and the kids will want it.  Make it a rule and they will fight it.  I'm no kid anymore, but I still remember exactly how I felt about rules back in the day.  In my dotage I have come to believe that some things are important enough to justify letting go of that rigid idea about "right to choose".  Suffering some hard knocks over a lot of years and witnessing some very sad things can bring us to the point where we voluntarily do the right thing versus the "cool" thing.  The shame is that so many are harmed before the wisdom kicks in.


Jerry

[spydglide]

All these arguments for wearing helmets and gear to protect against a fall make a certain amount of good sense until you carry the argument further out and then you'd have to question why let immature persons even get on two wheels and ride in the traffic that we have today.  No amt. of safety/protective gear is gonna save you when idiots run over you while talking on the cell phone or driving home drunk.  So, why stop at a helmet law?  Just outlaw motorcycles.  And then small cars, cause they don't protect you when a school bus runs over you.  It's all political, you can say what you want.  Drivers would be much safer wearing a helmet in a Buick, but not gonna get that bill passed, even with the helmet lobby advocating for it.  spyder

[2harleys]

Call it "age" warfare, but I do not trust their judgement.

The hypocrisy of it all,
 I  have drawn an arbitrary line knowing that some 18 year olds are mature enough to make their own decisions and feel most are not, and I know plenty of 25 year olds that cannot handle responsibility.

If left to me that line would be raised to 25,
from my experience, still arbitrary though.

My kids have grown up wearing seatbelts 100% of the time and have never questioned their participation.

I would never let them ride without a helmet, if I had a say.

     So are you saying that those 18 to 20 year olds are responsible enough to protect you and your country and vote for the people in your government, but------ they are not responsible enough to make a decision in a "right to choose state" if they should wear or not wear a helmet??  I grew up not wearing a seat belt and I am still intact and alive (and I assume that is the same for you). I wear a seat belt because I "choose" to wear it, and not because some politician decided it was in my best interest. I personally know two people in their 40s that can not make responsible decisions, but that still does not give me or you the right to tell them to wear a helmet in a "right to choose" state. My kids are all over 21, but I would never "tell" them what to do. I might give them suggestions, but I hope that I have raised them to make responsible decisions on their own. I have been riding for almost 45 years and in that time have ridden well over 250 thousand miles. I have lived in a "right" to choose state for over 42 years, and have ridden with and  without a helmet. Thank god there are still 30 states that leave the helmet wearing up to the rider. As I stated before, my mom was killed in a car wreck while wearing a seat belt, and I had a best friend that was killed in a motorcycle wreck while wearing a helmet. I still believe what I wear, what I drink, what I eat and anything else that I do that DOES NOT harm anyone else, should not be of ANY concern of anyone else. We ALL do things that potentially raise the insurance premiums, so let's take the not wearing of a helmet off the table. I think smoking does more to raise our insurance premiums than not wearing a helmet, but since it is still legal to smoke, I will not tell anyone to snuff the cigarette, unless they are blowing smoke in my face.

[Midnight Rider]

The "magic" age of 18 years old being old enough to join the military is based more on the fact that most KIDS are out of high school at that age, and if they can't figure something else to do, they join up.  Or, they just want to.  They are then trained and told EXACTLY what to do, when to do it, and where to do it.  So, that dog won't hunt with regards to making a statement about their "being responsible" to make good decisions.

I am very sorry that you lost your Mom, and the friend...there are of course exceptions to everything.  However, the ODDS of surviving are much better if one wears a seat belt or a helmet.  Those are facts that cannot be denied, and this topic can be discussed ad nauseum, but those who choose to ignore the facts are likely to continue to do so.  I"m pretty sure the only reason helmet laws aren't federally mandated is because the numbers of riders are so small compared to the number of overall driver's on the road, it's statistically insignificant.  Not the case with seat belt laws.

[B.A.]

Keats,  If you flip a coin I assume you would agree the odds of the flip being heads or tails is 50%, right?  Let's say you flip the coin 100 times and each time it comes up tails.  Do you know the odds of the next flip being heads?  It's 50%.

The more you play the lottery the higher your odds?  Nope!  Each play has the same odds.

Jus' sayin'.

To some others...  At some point THE CURE BECOMES THE DISEASE

IMHO, We've long since passed that point as it relates to many things in this country.

Let those who ride decide!  Goes for seat belts too, IMO!  Oh, and I wear one everyday.

[2harleys]

The "magic" age of 18 years old being old enough to join the military is based more on the fact that most KIDS are out of high school at that age, and if they can't figure something else to do, they join up.  Or, they just want to.  They are then trained and told EXACTLY what to do, when to do it, and where to do it.  So, that dog won't hunt with regards to making a statement about their "being responsible" to make good decisions.
I am very sorry that you lost your Mom, and the friend...there are of course exceptions to everything.  However, the ODDS of surviving are much better if one wears a seat belt or a helmet.  Those are facts that cannot be denied, and this topic can be discussed ad nauseum, but those who choose to ignore the facts are likely to continue to do so.  I"m pretty sure the only reason helmet laws aren't federally mandated is because the numbers of riders are so small compared to the number of overall driver's on the road, it's statistically insignificant.  Not the case with seat belt laws.

So let me get this straight. If my memory is not completely gone, I think the draft was abolished in the early 70's. So that would mean that all of those 18 to 20 year old kids we have been talking about, made a "responsible" decision to join the military (no matter what the reason was), and by making that decision, I am sure they all took into account that they may be seeing war time, and thus might not come back alive or at least not in one piece. But like you and others believe, they are responsible enough to make the life or death decision to join the military  ---  but they do not have the brain power to make a choice of riding a motorcycle with or without a helmet with out you or someone else deciding for them. Did I miss something here??? These kids can join the military, they can (in most states) buy guns and ammo and get a concealed carry permit, they can legally decide if they want to smoke they can legally decide about abortions, and they can vote for the clowns that are taking their rights away--- one right at a time, ---  but they need someone that thinks such as you do, that they need help deciding if they should wear a helmet. Maybe this world would be alot safer place if we all wore helmets 24-7.  I think kids die every single day from falls on the playground, car accidents and everything else they do from slipping in the bath tub to falling backwards out of their little red wagons. What  will be the next law we see to "make us all safe". Maybe we would all be safer if they passed a law that you have to have a life preserver on your person to get into a swimming pool, hot tub, lake or get near the ocean. And while we are talking safety  ----  maybe it is not all that safe to to be on two wheels riding 75 miles per hour on a four lane freeway next to tractor trailer rigs and 4000 lb cages. How long till the government decides that is to dangerous for us??? I have never split my head open while riding my bike, but I did end up in the emergency room with a bad concussion when I slipped on the ice on my patio while not wearing a helmet  ------   heh, I just had a thought, ---- what if we had a helmet law for-----
 

[Fired00d]

 .... No matter which a person stands on (for/against helmets) no amount of to change the mind/opinion of those on the other side is going to change their mind/opinion.  So I say.... lets just ride.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Keats]

Keats,  If you flip a coin I assume you would agree the odds of the flip being heads or tails is 50%, right?  Let's say you flip the coin 100 times and each time it comes up tails.  Do you know the odds of the next flip being heads?  It's 50%.

The more you play the lottery the higher your odds?  Nope!  Each play has the same odds.

Jus' sayin'.

To some others...  At some point THE CURE BECOMES THE DISEASE

IMHO, We've long since passed that point as it relates to many things in this country.

Let those who ride decide!  Goes for seat belts too, IMO!  Oh, and I wear one everyday.

Yes the odds on the next flip is still 50% but the odds of obtaining a string of 100 flips all tales is astronomical. it is about .01% chance of flipping a coin just 10 times tales.

The string does not change the odds on the next flip, but the string itself is improbable.

[Keats]

This thread follows the similar argument to politics. Republican or Democrat.

So. there is no right answer if you see it from the other side.

Maybe this thread has run it's course

[Half_Crazy]

I had to register for the draft when I turned 18 in 1978... but I don't think they were still drafting people then.