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[ralford]

Oh boy, what's next the "counter steering" debate    That said, I will say the braking on a Harley is quite different from on any other bike I have tried.  Probably due to the long wheel base and weight distribution there is less weight shift and the rear brake has a strong effect on the braking.  On a sport/super bike, I wonder why they even bother with a rear break; the weight shift to the front makes the rear brake almost useless for heavy breaking.  Same can be said from the BMWs I have ridden, rear brake has very little stopping power.

I doubt anyone has performed a "stoppie" on a Harley, certainly not a touring bike.

If you can't tell how the bike behaves when stopping, I think you need to reconsider riding a bike.  The action of the bike is fairly obvious.  It can be surprising to find out how much the bike behaves when the front brake is applied while corning - typically it will tend to make the bike stand up (meaning reduced lean in this case).  There is a racing topic about using the rear brake to increase clearance - not a significant effect and not in the Harley book of tricks.

Another factor is the use of the front brake induces a lot of front fork action that can create significant unintended steering, most evident when coming to a stop.  The rear brake seems smoother but requires a foot that is about to be necessary in holding up the bike...

Only, real msg here is to get used to the effects of stopping with the front/rear both in various attitudes and while under controlled situations.  You don't want to learn while over cooking a corner, imho.

Cheers

[Sledge]

Ok, I'll bite.

What is debatable about counter steering?

[michaelbmenaker]

Ok, I'll bite.

What is debatable about counter steering?

Why, the same thing that's debatable about evolution...science.

[Midnight Rider]

Why, the same thing that's debatable about evolution...science.

 

[Sledge]

Well what I mean is:  Since you can subjectively feel and experience how countersteering works and since it is obvious that it gives the desired effect above a certain speed, what is there to debate about it?

 

[Midnight Rider]

Well what I mean is:  Since you can subjectively feel and experience how countersteering works and since it is obvious that it gives the desired effect above a certain speed, what is there to debate about it?

 

There are more people riding that don't have a clue about countersteering than you might realize.  I mean, they're doing it, but just don't know it.  They think they're just leaning, and will argue with you about it, regardless of any facts you present.

[Sledge]

Yep, I didn't know what it was for a long time but used a crude version of it out of instinct I guess.  But when the instructor showed me how you can really use it I had a real wakeup call.

[ralford]

There is nothing debatable about "counter-steering" but that doesn't mean it isn't debated.  Frankly, the only time it really matters is when you have to "consciously" turn the bike, then the years of car and trike experience is deadly, and you must know how to turn.  I finally realized this when facing an oncoming Mexican lumber truck on a curve that I had entered a bit aggressively.  The only reason I am here today (not that is necessary a good thing for some) is I consciously pushed the lower bar and tightened the turn.  Another point is to decide before hand if you are going to give up on the bike and drive off the road, or push the low bar, trust the bike and low-side if it happens.  BTW, a real Mexican lumber truck in Mexico.

Cheers

[Half_Crazy]

I spent 1/2 my life racing motorcycles of one kind or another on dirt and asphalt. This is what I say to people who want to learn to go fast: "Learn to RIDE WELL, fast will come easy after that".

The point made about the effectiveness of the rear brake on these sort of bikes is spot on. Personally, in normal riding, I use the rear brake unless I need to stop shorter than the rear brake will stop me. If you're PAYING ATTENTION and LOOKING/THINKING AHEAD there will be very few times you are stopping in a hurry, right? If you keep your mental focus several seconds ahead of your azz... there will be few surprises.

Oh... and I love it when people talk about countersteering as if it were optional. "Sometimes I use contersteering, and sometimes I don't".

The best way to understand countersteering is to ride a curvy road one-handed. Set the cruise and switch hands back and forth. In VERY short order you will completely understand countersteering. You will have no choice.

[Midnight Rider]

It is possible to turn a bike with no hands on the bars, simply by leaning, and that is why some folks will argue that they turn their bikes by shifting their body weight on the bike.  Of course, what they don't realize is that the BIKE is turning because of countersteer, or the physics of the rotating wheels and the alignment of the two.  A motorcycle wants to go in a straight line, all the time (except at low speeds). If the rider could somehow be lifted off a bike going 40mph, on a perfectly flat, straight road, the bike would continue in a straight line all by itself.  It will only fall over when it slows to speeds where the gyroscopic effect of the wheels is negated by gravity.

Understanding countersteering, and practicing it until it becomes something you do without even thinking about it, makes you a better, safer rider.

But, I have come across several people who have been riding for years who will swear that they turn their bike by leaning, and in fact, they do...not a very effective way to steer though.  What you can't make them understand is that the bike is countersteering itself when they lean, and leaning in the direction of the curve, if their hands are on the bars,  puts pressure on the lower bar whether they are aware of it or not.  Countersteering is counterintuitive, thus the name...until a person is conciously aware of it, they really shouldn't be riding.

But most of us already know all this stuff, including effective braking.

[glenn bob]

If you have pressure on you front break and you run over any small object, your front tire will lock.  If you are going straight so what.  If you are in a turn (slow or fast) watch out.  When the locked front tire comes back to the pavement.  You will come straight up and many time over.  So fast.  Well lets say it might hurt a little.  The front break as everyone knows has the best stopping power, however in a turn one should keep there hand well away from that leaver.
Glenn
Retired Motor Officer

[Cvostu]

The more I see this one about not using the rear brake really makes me wonder.   It's there- use it. If used properly, the brakes work best together.  In twisty roads,most of us know what will happen when the front brake is used only or too much.   Bout one of the most dumbest things I have ever read on here.  The best riders and the people who instruct tell us how to use the brakeS together.   Ya think this might be a safety thing?  If it weren't an importtant part of the bike, it would not be there. What's the advantage of not using it?  The pads last longer?   Takes about 30 minutes to replace and costs a whopping 35.00 a pair.   I hope were not reading about the guy that started this thread some day.   

[Sledge]

I'm with Glenn,

MP Officers get and give the best training.  Front brake advice is spot on Glenn.  Also makes me chuckle when someone says countersteering doesn't matter much.

Ride safe (and smart) boys!

[Trapperdog]

  The best riders and the people who instruct tell us how to use the brakeS together. 

Some may want to heed the advice of poster #17. Ironhorse, he owns and runs "Ride Like A Pro" west coast in L.A., Ca. Like many of us, I've got 40 years of street and motocross experience and he continues to teach me a thing or twenty   

[spydglide]

ya'll have got me so confused I'm not even sure I can ride my motersickle now.    spyder