Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2  All

Author Topic: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties  (Read 5408 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

lammgrel

  • Junior CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50

    • CVO1: FLHXSE3
Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« on: September 10, 2011, 09:18:00 PM »

Ok, on all my previous bikes I have always had the SE Race Tuner installed and Dyno'd at the dealership after I had done the intake/exhaust mods.  Both dealerships that I have used said I should have no problem with warranty should I need it after these mods, and the SE Race Tuner.  Now I have an extended warranty on my FLHXSE3; I am really considering the Power Commander V with Auto Tune module for this, but I am having doubts about going through with it in case it voids my warranty.   :-\
Logged
Legend Air Suspension, Jackpot Exhaust, Fullsack 2.25" Cores, K&N High Flow Air Filter
SE Race Tuner, Windsplitter Windshield

JR

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4902
  • Be Still and Know that I AM God
    • TN


    • CVO1: 2012 ULTRA FLHTCUSE7
    • CVO2: 2005 SEEG FLHTCSE2
    • CVO3: 2000 SERG FLTRSEI
    • photobucket.com
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2011, 04:11:42 PM »

On my Nana I went with the Thundermax ECM and 575 cams. Before install a service writer told me it wouldn't void warranty. Later the service manager let me know if on the road and had a problem, it could be a warranty issue but not with them.

Last week I stopped by the dealer in Collierville and was asking the service manager if he has heard and had any experience with TTS tuner and Fullsac Xpipe. He has heard about it and hasn't had any experience with it. Talking the pros and cons between TTS and Harleys tuner ended with the issue of warranty and he said it would not be covered vs the Harley race tuner would.  :o
Logged

strokerjlk

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 143
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2011, 06:53:33 AM »

If your looking at the pcv you might check out the pc vision.
the se tuner is all you need though, and warranty is not a problem.
Logged


If you point your oxygen-acetylene cutting torch
at a temperature sensor and adjust it for the highest temp you have found stoichiometric
Ron Dickey

Steve Cole

  • Manufacturer TTS
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2011, 04:47:41 PM »

If you look at the SE tuner it's spelled out as a race item and there is no warranty from MOCO. What any dealer may or maynot do is up to them but MOCO will void the warranty if they find out just the same as any other tuner.
Logged
The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best.

UltraV

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

    • CVO1: '11 FLTRUSE
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 03:03:24 PM »

I have had that same question.  I asked my dealer if TTS or Powercommander would void the warranty if it modified the ECM.  I have the extended warranty of my '11 FLTRUSE and don't want to void it.  Was thinking of Fullsac and TTS, but dealer tells me that modifying the ECM voids warranty.  I know I can reset the ECM to the factory settings if necessary with the TTS, but what happens if I'm several states away on a trip and can't reset it?  Makes me cautious about changing the header and modifying the ECM. :-X
Logged
A bad day on the bike is better than a good day on the golf course!

strokerjlk

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 143
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 03:55:39 PM »

Moco will warranty there tuners. And will warranty the ECM if it has been flashed with there tuner. 
I f there tuner is used motor Warranty is authorized. Happens every single day.
not so fortunate with other devices.
Logged


If you point your oxygen-acetylene cutting torch
at a temperature sensor and adjust it for the highest temp you have found stoichiometric
Ron Dickey

Steve Cole

  • Manufacturer TTS
  • 1K CVO Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1430
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 08:31:55 PM »

Moco will warranty there tuners. And will warranty the ECM if it has been flashed with there tuner. 
I f there tuner is used motor Warranty is authorized. Happens every single day.
not so fortunate with other devices.

This is NOT true and never has been. :thumbsdown: HD MOCO will NOT warranty the engine or driveline unless it has a OEM Smog Legal calibration, period. If you use the Street tuner which will only install smog legal calibrations it is true but you use the SERT or SESPT and all bets are off. Now each dealer may try and slide stuff by the MOCO but that does not change there (MOCO)policy and all you have to do is read the catalog to find it out. Do you think that HD had us write the code with Delphi to identify that a tuner has been used on the bike just for the fun of it!

Moco also understands the federal law and they know if they allow it for one they MUST allow it for all.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 08:50:33 PM by Steve Cole »
Logged
The Best you know, is the Best you've had........ not necessarily the Best.

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14216
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 09:54:17 PM »


Plenty of dealership folks will assure customers that as long as they spend their money with the dealer and the MoCo for their illegal modifications, instead of the aftermarket, they will still honor the warranty.  However, I've never seen one yet who is willing to back that up by putting it in writing and having the dealer sign it.  And you definitely won't get anyone at H-D corporate to even tell you that crap, much less put it in writing.  They are skating on thin ice already by just selling all that crap to make illegal modifications.  If the EPA ever decided to quit kissing Harley's butt and started cracking down on the illegal emission system tampering, the fines would be astronomical.

Plenty of dealerships submit false claims every day of the week, and I'm sure they often get away with it.  But to assume that you as a customer can rely on any particular dealer to cover something that Harley policy does not cover is nothing more than a gamble.  And btw, when your dealer hooks up his computer to your bike for any service work, data from your ECM is accessed and some of it gets forwarded to H-D.  It would be very easy for them to flag the VIN of any bike that showed a non-approved calibration and then make sure to review any warranty claims that get submitted.  They may not actually be doing this at this time, but the technology exists to do so very easily.

After saying all that, here's my opinion on the whole subject.  It's your bike, and if you want to perform some minor stage 1 mods to make it run better and cooler, then just do it.  Unless your mods can be proved to be the direct cause of any failure you might have later, it is highly unlikely you will have any issues with warranty coverage.  You do have some very specific legal protections under Federal warranty law; more people need to learn about them.  Try a web search for "Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975".  And don't let unscrupulous dealerships jerk your chain and lie to you.  Unless you live in bumf$%* Egypt, odds are there is more than one dealership within riding distance.  Find one populated with good people who appreciate good customers.


Jerry
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

strokerjlk

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 143
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 10:11:03 PM »

The moco authorizes ecm work with a se tuner.
Hell they even covered a old sert. My buddy spent all day on it.
ecm was bad ,they replaced the ecm and couldn't get the sert  remarried .
several calls to moco.they warranted a ecm/sespt/dyno tune.
actually my buddy and the dealership ate the dyno time.
 Could they say your SOL? sure. Do they? No
now a tts with a mt 8 not a chance
Logged


If you point your oxygen-acetylene cutting torch
at a temperature sensor and adjust it for the highest temp you have found stoichiometric
Ron Dickey

uscanuck

  • Junior CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 52
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 10:19:41 AM »

I think once you start adding tuners etc., you better go into it with the understanding that you will no longer be covered under warranty.

If you have a good relationship with your dealer and they cover problems for you great, if not bad luck.

I've added cams, headers, mufflers, AC and TTS within 6 months of new and fully expect that if something happens with the engine it's going to be on my dime unless it can be proven otherwise.

I actually added the 2 year extended warranty which cost me $500 when I bought the bike last year.  I'm debating about getting this refunded now or just keeping it in case of other non-engine related issues down the road.
Logged

TheLoneWolfPack

  • The Lone Wolf
  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 168
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 11:20:44 AM »

"Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act"

Under this federal statute, a manufacturer who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle is prohibited from denying coverage while the vehicle is still under warranty when modified parts are used.  Under the act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer's original warranty, if it can be proven that the aftermarket device is the direct cause of the failure.

Specifically, the rules and regulations adopted by the FTC to govern the interpretation and enforcement of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act are set forth in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 16 - Commercial Practices, Chapter I - Federal Trade Commission, Subchapter G - Rules, Regulations, Statements and Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, Part 700 - Interpretations under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Contained within these rules and regulations is Section 700.10, which states:

No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, "This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized 'ABC' dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine 'ABC' parts," and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102(c) ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. YOU MUST DEMAND COMPLIANCE is the key.  The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.

That being said, if you choose to modify your HD, and suddenly the fancy new electronic control boxes that you added to your HD make it run rough, not start when cold, or buck like a bronco, the dealer can and will charge a diagnostic fee to find out what is wrong with your car. If it turns out that your modifications are the cause of the problem, the dealer has every right not only to charge you for the diagnosis and repair, but to also void the portion of the warranty that has been compromised by the use of those aftermarket parts. Likewise, a dealer may refuse to service your HD if it is adorned with aftermarket parts to the extent that its technicians cannot reasonably be expected to diagnose what is wrong with your HD. As an example, all HDs are equipped with OBDII (On Board Diagnostics II) ports that dealers use to read engine diagnostic codes for everything from an engine vacuum leak to a malfunctioning emissions system. If your chosen modification has compromised the dealer service center's ability to scan for these codes (aftermarket ECUs generally do not support OBDII), then there is a strong probability that the dealer service center will

Deny warranty coverage
Refuse to service the car
Note with your factory field representative for your region/district that your car has been "modified"

Logged
2011 FLHXSE2, 113 Torque Pounds, Screamin’ Eagle Pro Super Tuner, Vanc & Hines Power Chamber, Rinehart 4", Sundowner Seat, Standard Backrest, FLHX Passenger Floor Boards, Garmin 665 Weather/Nav, 10" Windshield, Fairing, Air Deflectors,

AZ Sparky

  • Full CVO Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 137

    • CVO1: 2011 FLHXSE2 in Kryptonite/Black
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 12:35:47 PM »

...  Unless your mods can be proved to be the direct cause of any failure you might have later, it is highly unlikely you will have any issues with warranty coverage.  You do have some very specific legal protections under Federal warranty law; more people need to learn about them.  Try a web search for "Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975".  And don't let unscrupulous dealerships jerk your chain and lie to you.  Unless you live in bumf$%* Egypt, odds are there is more than one dealership within riding distance.  Find one populated with good people who appreciate good customers.


Jerry

GREAT CALL JERRY!!!

That is exactly what my dealer told me when I was discussing Stage 1 mods with him - the warranty would be voided only IF MoCo could prove that the mods were the direct cause of the problem.  He also added that it didn't matter if it was MoCo's tuner or anyone elses - there is no protection in using MoCo, it's treated the same.
Logged
Sparky

Midnight Rider

  • AKA: TCnBham
  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11107
  • FLHRSEI.ORG

    • CVO1: 2011 SERGU Rio Red (sold)
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 12:44:11 PM »

There are many shades of gray with all this, IMO.  If you replace the entire ECM with a new "box" from some other manufacturer...as an example, Thundermax (not dissing them, it's just an example)...you are probably standing on thinner ice than if you modify the existing ECM with another "map".  Particularly when your local dealer sells a product that does just that, and is not substantially different than a product like TTS (again, just an example), especially since TTS and the SERT are functionally virtually identical.  The EPA stuff is going to catch up with HD at some point in time, but doing things like removing the CAT, replacing mufflers, air cleaners, etc...the MOCO would have a hard time denying warranty coverage if a lifter takes a crap, a valve stem guide, a crank with runout so bad that it takes out other parts, or other things like that.  The ESP administrator?  That's a different story, as they can basically do, or not do, whatever they want if the bike is not totally stock.  They are not subject to the MMWA...but, they'd have a hell of a time with me if they denied coverage for a radio, ABS system, or electronic components whose failure could not possibly be attributed to a change to the map in the ECM.  Even a transmission, unless I tow a trailer with the bike.  Changing cams, head gaskets, etc...that's a different ballgame entirely, as the mechanical function of the engine itself has been modified.  Bottom line...claims to the ESP are more likely to be denied if mods have been made to the function of the engine, and the more mods, the less likely they will cover engine related failure.  Even that is a bit of a crapshoot though, as I know folks here who have had whole motors rebuilt/replaced on ESP claims and those bikes had mods like cams, etc...not radical stuff, but relatively minor things.
Logged
Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability...

Gone, but not forgotten...2011 FLTRUSE with
Fullsac X Pipe w/2" Baffles
Legend Air Ride Rear Shocks
Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 Front Suspension
Clearview GT13 Windshield
TTS Mastertune

UltraV

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22

    • CVO1: '11 FLTRUSE
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 03:21:56 PM »

What is the difference between the MT7 and MT8?  Why would one void a warranty and not the other?
Logged
A bad day on the bike is better than a good day on the golf course!

Midnight Rider

  • AKA: TCnBham
  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11107
  • FLHRSEI.ORG

    • CVO1: 2011 SERGU Rio Red (sold)
Re: Aftermarket ECM's and Extended Warranties
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 03:27:18 PM »

What is the difference between the MT7 and MT8?  Why would one void a warranty and not the other?

From my understanding, MT8 locks the HD Tech from CHANGING YOUR MAP IN THE ECM, or reflashing the ECM.  It does not disable them from hooking up and seeing what's going on.  The MT7 does not do this, from my understanding.

I"m sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
Logged
Sometimes it takes a whole tankful of fuel before you can think straight.
I had the right to remain silent, just not the ability...

Gone, but not forgotten...2011 FLTRUSE with
Fullsac X Pipe w/2" Baffles
Legend Air Ride Rear Shocks
Traxxion Dynamics AK-20 Front Suspension
Clearview GT13 Windshield
TTS Mastertune
Pages: [1] 2  All
 

Page created in 0.217 seconds with 19 queries.