Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ultramellon]

I have been reading the advise and topics and have learned a lot about Harleys,products and dealing with the moco. I have an 06 ultra green and black with almost 2000 miles on it .Since day one the bike has had a proplem with the cold idle. So far the injectors were changed a race tune was done a stage one air intake was done it has been tuned up plugs changed and the wires were changed. the plus side is the horsepower and torc are now at 100 and 103 each the down side is the bike still stalls. I have called Harley and have a refrence number basicly they seem to think that the problem is not something they can do much more with. I bought the bike last August and lost the entire month of October and then had the bike for one day and then it was gone untill november. I dont want to loose much more riding time and I plan on riding the bike 2000 miles to Sturgis in August. Anybody with any ideas on why the bike stalls when cold I would appreciate the input. The only other performance modifications I have done are change the mufflers to samsons this was done when the race tune and air intake were changed. I would appreciate any input you people may have.

[bgregston]

I'm not all that knowlegable on engines but... Here's a short section from the race tuner manual that tells you what the EFI sytem is doing during cold idle. If you have a race tuner then you have the manual on the CD. If you haven't already, read this section. You might have a bad sensor. From what you described, I think thats about all thats left.

[grc]

Ultramellon,

The MoCo should address and correct this.  They set a precedent by issuing service bulletin M1185 to correct the exact same issues (cold start, idle, and stalling) on '06 model TC88's.  You mentioned a race tuner - did someone do a custom map or did you use one of the H-D maps?  H-D's maps are just like their Stage downloads, in that they are still rather lean at low rpms. You should be able to add fuel for cold idle up to about 1800 rpm, which will normally eliminate the low idle speed, hesitation, and stalling.  One of the SERT experts on this site can probably help you with this if your dealer or tuner can't.

Jerry

[ultramellon]

thanks I did not get the cd with the down load and did not know there was a cd ill talk to the dealer and see what gives. the bike runs great when its warmed up so what you sent would make sense thanks again

[ultramellon]

Jerry the dealer did the down load after approval from the moco so im asumming that it it a factory race tune

[bigmanken]

Ultra,
I can't say this is the problem, but I feel compelled to share with you. My Haze (delivered in October), suffered from intermittant hard cold starts. The symptom was a "cough and spit" . It was irregular and extremely hard to track down. My technician (in Texas) was able to come across an issue from a dealership in Florida and California.

The fuel pump had a bad(loose) ground. He went in and properly secured the two spade connections. Apparently, the bad ground would cause the fuel pump to recharge, dumping excess fuel. Word is that Moco knows of the problem, but it is a limited number of bikes with the issue.

Anyway, sounds as if you are at the end of your rope. May be worth having your guys check into it.

Ken

[ultramellon]

thanks Ken ill look into that myself this weekend

[johnnymap]

My Haze has had the same problem.  SEULTRA turned me on to the B suffix download that his dealer did on his.  My service manager checked mine and it already had the B and the 25 injectors.  The MOCO wanted my ECM to do a "C" download that the dealers do not have, supposedly.  We sent it to Milwaukee and they turned it around in two days, suprising.  It ran great for about 200 miles and then it started the same thing all over again.

I passed on Kens idea about the ground to the SM and he is going to talk to the MOCO on Thursday.  We are going to Montana next week and I believe we will see some cooler weather which will compound the cold start and idle problem.

Will let you know what happens.

john

[bgregston]

Ultramellon,
I sent you an email to the address you have listed in your profile.
Bret

[magicl1]

Ultramellon,
Before I took delivery of mine in January, I had read about the cold start problem.  The first time I started it up at home, I got the cough (cut out) once then twice and it stalled.  Had problems with coughing at start-out from stop lights.  Took it to dealer and they checked with MOCO and called be back in after about two weeks.  This was when everyone was talking about a fix for the problem.  My dealer apparently got tired of waiting or they put pressure on MOCO for their authorization to put a Race Tuner on the bike.  The I got a copy of the upload and it was just the standard Calibration #36 with some minor adjustments.  Nothing changed on the AFR's.  The problem was solved!!! [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]  I have not had a cough, sputter or stall eversince!  I just installed 2:1 Supertrapps and hope to get the bike up to my Tuner for adjustments and dyno.  Taking along printouts of my tables so he is aware of what they did.  By now, it looks like MOCO may have a flash fix (I have not been keeping up on all the updates since about March).  I was hoping they would actually have a calibration in one of the SERT discs.  Maybe they have a newer disc out???
I was pleased with how my dealer handled the situation, but I know not all dealers were willing to do the same.  Good luck with a speedy resolution.

[FR8TRN]

The I got a copy of the upload and it was just the standard Calibration #36 with some minor adjustments.  Nothing changed on the AFR's.

You would still have a copy of this download layin around somewhere right??  If ya could post it or email it to me I'd certainly appreciate it....mkhurley@verizon.net

[grc]

Ultramellon,
Before I took delivery of mine in January, I had read about the cold start problem.  The first time I started it up at home, I got the cough (cut out) once then twice and it stalled.  Had problems with coughing at start-out from stop lights.  Took it to dealer and they checked with MOCO and called be back in after about two weeks.  This was when everyone was talking about a fix for the problem.  My dealer apparently got tired of waiting or they put pressure on MOCO for their authorization to put a Race Tuner on the bike.  [highlight]The I got a copy of the upload and it was just the standard Calibration #36 with some minor adjustments.  Nothing changed on the AFR's.  The problem was solved!!! [/highlight][smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]  I have not had a cough, sputter or stall eversince!  I just installed 2:1 Supertrapps and hope to get the bike up to my Tuner for adjustments and dyno.  Taking along printouts of my tables so he is aware of what they did.  By now, it looks like MOCO may have a flash fix (I have not been keeping up on all the updates since about March).  I was hoping they would actually have a calibration in one of the SERT discs.  Maybe they have a newer disc out???
I was pleased with how my dealer handled the situation, but I know not all dealers were willing to do the same.  Good luck with a speedy resolution.

magical1,

The most likely scenario is that the MoCo made changes to the Cold Start and Warmup tables in the ECM, and did not change the A/F for normal operating temps.  The EPA emissions testing protocol includes cold start and warmup, so the MoCo has obviously set those parameters at the ragged edge to pass the tests.  The problem with that is the relatively large variation in sensors, throttle bodies, injectors, etc. on production bikes.  The map H-D uses works ok with some bikes, and not worth two cents with others.  The map in the ECM is the same, but all the other components are not.  H-D needs to tighten their tolerances on the various component parts if they intend to use the "ragged edge" approach to mapping.  Or they could borrow some ideas from the car guys, add a little sophistication to their emissions system, and provide a clean running bike with outstanding driveability (hot or cold), just like every car or truck I've owned in the last 15 years.  Oh well, we can all dream, right?

Jerry

[ultramellon]

thanks for your help and the manual down load you guys are great. I am sending the bike back to the dealer next week They said they will check the ground on the fuel pump and recheck the settings. It sounds like Johny Mapps Haze is pretty close to the same issues and attempted fixs that have been tried on my mellon. Ill let you guys now how I make out Thanks again.

[magicl1]

You would still have a copy of this download layin around somewhere right??  If ya could post it or email it to me I'd certainly appreciate it....mkhurley@verizon.net

I will copy over from my lap top (can't send from work).  I found it was easier to compare the printouts of the tables from my copy to the existing Calibration 36.  I will forward a copy of the current G version even though my update was to the F version.  No changes other than Part information (injectors etc).

[highlight]Update:[/highlight]  Here is my file.  I will repost with copy of the Cal #36 from the G Disc version since I can't seem to attach 2 seperate files to this.

Hmmm.... spits, sputters, then quits in the middle of a left turn two seconds before the semi arrives? On the way to the dealer for that # 36 download! How big can you get those "Depends" ?

Close to how my dealer wrote up the ticket!  I attached my copy above and here is the G version of Calibration 36.  Note, [highlight]this will not fix the problem without a few minor adjustments as noted in the NCR copy[/highlight].  Since they decided to use the SERT to fix mine, this is the only calibration for 2006 CUSE so that is what the dealer used to make adjustments to.  Not sure that I understand how the adjustments resolved the problem since from my initial reading of the manual, I would have thought other adjustments would have been made, but that just shows how much I know!  The problem was resolved!  If it aint broke now, I certainly did not want to attempt to fix it again! Still lean however, I will post an updated copy after my dyno tune scheduled for next week.  I just installed the 2:1's with the SE Air (the one that doesn't fit CUSE's!)
Disclaimer:  If you choose to use this file, you may want to get your dealer's opinion unless you are an experienced tuner.  For those of you who are experienced, I would certainly like to see any opinions on the adjustments to this NCR file version of Calibration #36 below. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[BigR55]

Hmmm.... spits, sputters, then quits in the middle of a left turn two seconds before the semi arrives? On the way to the dealer for that # 36 download! How big can you get those "Depends" ?