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[strokerjlk]

if you dont unhook them. (o2 sensors) they dont throw any codes so there isnt any stored codes either.
you dont have to unhook them to run  all open loop.
if you lean the cruise out to 14.4 (open loop)  you could squeeze the extra 2-3 mpg out of it, that closed loop will net you.
 that as rich as you will ever see in closed loop (14.45) ,out the tail pipe. I do not much see the need to run that lean on anything.
if you want the extra heat,and your the one with the calculator walking around comparing every one's mileage at every fuel stop,have at it.
I will just spend another dollar or two at the pump,and not be the one complaining about heat off the motor.

Steve
No matter what rpm you are running there is always spent gasses or fresh air, depending on the length and diameter of the pipe, being moved up and down in the pipe with the exhaust pulses. At lower rpms it is more noticable however it does effect the 02 readings at higher rpm's too.

agree.... that is something to think about....... any time there is 02 feedback controlling fueling.

[Razorback]

I don't know what you have against closed loop except I don't think you totally understand the concept. Running 02 sensors doesn't make the bike run lean....there is nothing wrong with the AFR being 14.2 to 14.5 in a no load situation, you gain nothing by running in the 13's with open loop.  Removing the 02 sensors is removing 1/3 of the ECM capability to maintain the target AFR that was requested in the tune that was done. Taking away the Adaptive Fuel Values is going backwards in the technology of today's fuel injection systems. Look,... the Vikings rowed a boat very well, however today we put motors on those boats....any one removing the 02 sensors because they don't like them or they are using the PC III or PCV is picking up the oars again.
The ECM will throw a code if it doesn't receive a signal from the 02's within 40 seconds, unless you install a resister in the 02 wire.
Doc

So from these statements is it fair to assume that you would typically set your pre 07 open loop bikes that you tune at that 13 to 1 afr range? My 06 Road King with a built 95 runs great and has been cross country and over the mountains pulling a trailer with no issue and no 02 sensor feedback. Mileage from 35 -43 heavily loaded, so what am I missing?

[grc]

If a tuner does the job properly, it makes little difference in the short term if he does so utilizing closed loop feedback or just runs 100% open loop.  Where the difference comes in is over time, with the closed loop system being able to self adjust (to a certain extent) as parts wear, fuel pressure changes, air filter restriction changes, etc..  So in my semihumble opinion, if you want the best of all worlds over time, leave the closed loop system functional.  And don't forget, closed loop doesn't directly affect acceleration and WOT, at least not with standard narrow band systems, so it doesn't restrict how rich you set those parameters.

I suppose we could throw out all the technical advances of the past 30 years and just ride bikes with steel rod activated drum brakes, carburetors about as sophisticated as the ones on your lawnmower, points and condenser ignition, etc., but I'm thinking that most people would quickly go back to the modern system after just one ride on one of those old dinosaurs.  Sometimes progress is just that, progress.


Jerry

[Twolanerider]

If a tuner does the job properly, it makes little difference in the short term if he does so utilizing closed loop feedback or just runs 100% open loop.  Where the difference comes in is over time, with the closed loop system being able to self adjust (to a certain extent) as parts wear, fuel pressure changes, air filter restriction changes, etc..  So in my semihumble opinion, if you want the best of all worlds over time, leave the closed loop system functional.  And don't forget, closed loop doesn't directly affect acceleration and WOT, at least not with standard narrow band systems, so it doesn't restrict how rich you set those parameters.

I suppose we could throw out all the technical advances of the past 30 years and just ride bikes with steel rod activated drum brakes, carburetors about as sophisticated as the ones on your lawnmower, points and condenser ignition, etc., but I'm thinking that most people would quickly go back to the modern system after just one ride on one of those old dinosaurs.  Sometimes progress is just that, progress.


Jerry

Jerry, you misunderstood the thread.  It's not really about progress or systems modernity anymore.  It quickly became another vendor vs vendor or servicer vs servicer episode of the (seemingly) daily soap opera of "Mine is bigger than yours and I think I'm so subtle about saying it that no one will realize my goal here is really to sell chit."  The serialized daily drama is brought to us without storyline and entirely with commercial interruption.

[SteveFLHTK]

Not my intention when I started the thread.

[Twolanerider]

Not my intention when I started the thread.

Steve, obviously it wasn't.  You just wanted to have a chat with the boys about a potentially interesting topic that had some technical detail as a component of the conversation.  That the vendors that parasite, sorry, populate the site so much anymore can't leave a thread like that alone as they try to parse details and pick nits to show each is just a little smarter than the other and make their not quite as subtle as they think repetitive pitches for their wares and services is not something that is caused by the membership.  It's just something we have to sit through; over and over and over again.

Or, to put it slightly more succinctly:

[strokerjlk]

Jerry, you misunderstood the thread.  It's not really about progress or systems modernity anymore.  It quickly became another vendor vs vendor or servicer vs servicer episode of the (seemingly) daily soap opera of "Mine is bigger than yours and I think I'm so subtle about saying it that no one will realize my goal here is really to sell chit."  The serialized daily drama is brought to us without storyline and entirely with commercial interruption.

I see this all the time and do agree some just hang out for profit.
below is my fist post. maybe the way I started it I DO THEM ALL THE TIME. seemed like I want to cut the cat out for him and tune his bike bla bla bla. actually I didnt even consider that. so it wasent like I was competing aganist anyone for profit.
I dont cut cats out ,I have guys get it done at a few diff places local,and some do it themselves. I dont want to do them.I dont do much mech work except in the winter either . just tune 3 hrs a day. and am as busy as a one man part time hobbiest can be. so I wasent trolling for work I just wanted to say the pipes work fine ,better than some aftermarket pipes, and they can be tuned.just giving the other side. Sorry if you feel diff.

I do them all the time. (stock head pipe cat removed) the pipe works very well actually once the cat is removed.
of course the sensors are bung plugs now,and the tune is all open loop. so cross talk dosent matter.
if you dont have to use the NB sensors to tune with, all's good.
you dont have to worry about being lean anywhere. you will give up a couple MPG.

[Fired00d]

I see this all the time and do agree some just hang out for profit.
below is my fist post. maybe the way I started it I DO THEM ALL THE TIME. seemed like I want to cut the cat out for him and tune his bike bla bla bla. actually I didnt even consider that. so it wasent like I was competing aganist anyone for profit.
I dont cut cats out ,I have guys get it done at a few diff places local,and some do it themselves. I dont want to do them.I dont do much mech work except in the winter either . just tune 3 hrs a day. and am as busy as a one man part time hobbiest can be. so I wasent trolling for work I just wanted to say the pipes work fine ,better than some aftermarket pipes, and they can be tuned.just giving the other side. Sorry if you feel diff.
 

Either way it sounds like you are a vendor.... you have a PM.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Doc 1]

Steve, obviously it wasn't.  You just wanted to have a chat with the boys about a potentially interesting topic that had some technical detail as a component of the conversation.  That the vendors that parasite, sorry, populate the site so much anymore can't leave a thread like that alone as they try to parse details and pick nits to show each is just a little smarter than the other and make their not quite as subtle as they think repetitive pitches for their wares and services is not something that is caused by the membership.  It's just something we have to sit through; over and over and over again.

Or, to put it slightly more succinctly:

[Twolanerider]

If only all the vendors could always be that ^ succinct and concise.

[Blackdog]

OK, I have heard a lot of talk about "possible" crosstalk of O2 sensors created by removal of the cat's from 2010 and above bikes due to the location of the sensors.  Personally, I consider this akin to stories about Little Red Riding Hood and the 3 little pigs.  However, knowing a lot of people here have removed the cat's from their bikes....has anyone actually experienced this phenomena personally?  I don't want "I heard of" or "Someone told me" stories please.

I am NOT DISAGREEING with anyone who has replied to SteveFLHTK on this subject but only posting my results. My current bike is a 2010 Street Glide.  When I bought it I was hoping to keep it stock but like every bike I have owned I could not resist making a few mods.

The first mod was a free flowing AC and TTS Mastertune.  After some VTuning the bike did indeed run better but still too much heat from the Cat.  Then I added a 4" Rinehart slip-on muffler and did some more VTuning.  Once again I liked the results but the heat from the Cat was too much. 

Last winter I read about every post I could find on this subject and decided to do some experimenting on my own.  So, I bought a takeoff header (cheap) on Ebay,  cut it in half, removed the Cat, and had it tig welded back together.  When Spring arrived and before I did any VTuning I took it for a ride.  My initial impression was that the exhaust note seemed a little beefier especially when cranking the throttle but the heat from the Cat was gone.  Overall ridability seemed the same.  Next, I did some VTuning.  Most of the VEs stayed within 2%.  Some changed by as much as 3.3% - 3.5%.  I have now run this setup for about 4,000 miles.

My results:

The bike starts and idles just fine.
Steady cruising at low and high RPM produce no surging, hesitation, etc.
When you snap the throttle it pulls hard.
Average MPG is 45 -46.

I do run the idle circuit in open loop (that's what I want to do).
After idle I run closed loop up to 4,000 rpms.  Then it's all open loop.

If the people that tune for a living say there is crosstalk within the O2 sensors then I believe it.  However, I cannot detect any abnormalities in the way my bike runs.

Once again,  I'm not challenging anyones facts or opinions.  Just reporting my results.

Is it possible that there could be less crosstalk with the 2-1 as opposed to the 2-1-2 header?

[RedDevil]

I'm running a de-catted stock headpipe on my SERGU and the "X" pipe on my SESG.  The tuner said that my SERGU tuned up the nicest that he's ever tuned a bike.  It runs smooth throughout the power band, pulls like an electric prodded mule, and if it's cross-talking, they're talking very nicely to each other.  My SESG runs like a scalded dog, and I can't tell any performance differences between the two bikes.  Is there cross-talk?  Can't say one way or the other.  All I know is I have no issues, that I can sense.  Just reporting my personal experience. 

 

[kerb]

Believe it....the bike will never run as good as it can with the Cat removed and the 02's cross talking....the VE's will be all over the place. I haven't just heard it I seen it, and proved it. Even with the cat in the front cylinder gets a little confused from the rear cylinder gasses, however the rear cylinder tunes very well. When the CAT is removed they both go wacky because you have MORE exhaust gas recirculation......it's not a myth.
  
Doc

Do you know if this crosstalk problem exists with a 2:1 Fatcat?

[Steve Cole]

Cross talk is a funny thing. It occurs due to the placement of the O2 sensors in relationship to the end of the pipe and the mufflers being used. The engine build also plays a good part in it as well. Larger overlap camshaft and lower compression can real screw with it. So there is no one size fits all answer, what works for one may well not work for another. Rule of thumb is to help prevent it you place the O2 sensors 8 - 10 times the diameter of the pipe forward of the end of the pipe. This moves them far enough away from the end that the cross talk does not effect them. Look at most any exhaust pipe and you will find that most do not follow the rules. Another way to help is to increase the backpressure in the exhaust as this again help keep the two exhaust signals from getting to the sensor.

Funny thing is that when a bike is on a dyno and the dyno operator doesn't put the AFR meter in the right place in the pipe you have the same problem but they do not want to talk about it. Truth is you need to be careful and make sure the sensors are seeing what is really happening so they can give the proper information to the ECM or dyno printout to do any good.

[HOGMIKE]

Ok, I have heard a lot of talk about "possible" crosstalk of O2 sensors created by removal of the cat's from 2010 and above bikes due to the location of the sensors.  Personally, I consider this akin to stories about Little Red Riding Hood and the 3 little pigs.  However, knowing a lot of people here have removed the cat's from their bikes....has anyone actually experienced this phenomena personally?  I don't want "I heard of" or "Someone told me" stories please.

I've had a couple of bikes with the cats removed, and both were dyno tuned by the same guy. My sensors may or may not have that issue, but, I don't care. Bikes both run just fine, from idle to WOT. If there IS that issue with MY bikes, and you can prove it to me, I STILL would not change any settings. I LIKE the way they perform, and it works for ME.
The "real world" riding with some friends will tell the tale.
Ask yourself if your bone stock bike runs to your liking, or do you have the bucking, lurching, hard starting that some have experienced after some mods.
If your bike runs worse after pipes and a/c, you are moving backwards.
You asked for "real world" experiences? My lightly warmed over 2010 103 runs just fine, and will not exhibit any drama from idle to 129 mph. Starts good, runs good from below sea level to over 14,000 feet. I LIKE IT!
Crosstalk? Maybe, but I'm not going to look for it, or change it!
JMHO and my experience.