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[timo482]

i run a sidecar on my ultra - after a few years ive found that the power output declines after about 75% throttle, if i roll back the bike will run better and actually speed up a bit. this is only apparant in high headwinds or steep long grades - but it is a issue - the cruise control will put the bike in those conditions . if i kick it off cruise and play with it i can get the throttle right at the sweet spot where its in tune and it will recover power and away i go - but its a complete pita.

playing with the throttle and which gear im in running into a stiff headwind is when i can tell that its going out of tune at high throttle positions.

the bike is stone stock - ive read that the ecm goes out of closed loop at some percent of throttle on the asssssumption that im racing or some such nonsense, where in reality im running 65 or 70 in 5th or 6th in wind conditions that keep it right at the end of the throttle or run the cruise control right to the end.

the bike has a couple more years of esp so im trying to avoid entanglements - is there any cost effective way to record the actual tune condition at high load? and / or any cost effective way to adjust where and how it jumps out of closed loop? if i end up having to spend a pile of bux on it id also like to be able to adjust the gear ratio properly so i can change to a 30t whenever i get around to changing the belt as it has a nice 1/4" hole in it.

thanks

to

[Rooster]

Might need to pump that stock motor up to better handle those situations with a side car. Works the same with a heavy trailer. I have experience the same as you and had to choose shift down or slow down to stay in the power band. There are some very knowledgeable members on this site that could help you get where you want to be. Good luck

[HOGMIKE]

A good start would be the 30T change. Think of the TriGlides, they pull similar weight and run pretty good bone stock.
Depending on your wallet, and how well your dealer will handle your ESP will limit your choices of upgrades.
JMHO, but, the TriGlides I've ridden work pretty well. Your sidecar rig would be similar I think.
 

[strokerjlk]

you are into 100 kpa (map) or WOT on a rig such as yours very quick and at much less than 75 % throttle when your under load.
actually 45-50 % throttle is very common. I have a bunkhouse camper I pull at times. loaded it is @500+ LBS. I have data logged it and used it for some street tuning,it doesn't take much to send it to 100 kpa. same way with tri-glides.
so on a stock ECM such as yours. there are safeguards behind the scenes. the ECM knows it is at 100 kpa and how long it has been there. the longer you stay there the more fuel it will add.it will also start retarding some timing. other things play into all this as well (temps/baro,but what you are experiencing is a overly rich condition,then you back out of the throttle ,bring it down in kpa, lean it out some,come out of power enrichment and speed up a little momentarily, then start over again. maybe you could get your dealer to dyno tune it,or recommend a dealer to tune it,and still keep the warranty.

[timo482]

so if what im hitting basically amount to safeties for longevity

i interpret what you are saying is that i could tune the engine to run leaner at a higher throttle setting but it might damage the engine....

then i really should be looking at the 30 t sprocket to change the gearing?

does anybody know if there is a actual difference between the bike tune and the triglide tune? if they are different i could try running a stock triglide tune in this bike? or did event he first triglides have the larger engine?

hmm

[Steve Cole]

The Tri glide 103 tune is the same as the 103 bike tune. So when trying to play with adjustments you need to look at them all and balance what your doing. changing the sproket is going to give you better low speed manners but it will cost you some MPG at highway speeds. PEmode which is what is happening at highways speeds is based on a few things to make it work and that is not the same in all years and models so one would need to know what base calibration is being used to determine what may or maynot be going on. I would check to see if there are any software updates from what you have as HD has updated some of there base calibrations for drive ability issues.

If you want to get in and adjust the ECM and the speedo that can be handled with a Mastertune unit but that may impact your ESP.

[timo482]

philosophically is it better to work on the perfect tune for a high load bike? or is it better to go with bigger cubes?

the answer is not entirely obvious to me. most folks spend there thinking and dyno time trying to get "more power". what is really needed on a sidecar bike or a trike is more torque and hp peaking at about 3grand. 5500 is completely pointless as i do not think ive hit 5 grand on any of my bikes in the last ten years. i looked at air cleaners but ran some numbers and read some articles on air cleaner flow - a stone stock air cleaner appears to be more than adequate for a 96" bike at 4grand so thats pointless. i might gain a tiny bit with larger cores in my mufflers but im running 4" mufflers now. the only thing i can put my finger on at the moment is that its OBVIOUS that it drops out of good tune in a headwind - running in 5th will often cure that but sometimes in really flat country with a really stiff wind its still going rich.

there appear to be several ways to solve the issue - obviously if money was no object putting in a engine that has enough power to be at only 50% throttle in a stiff headwind would be wonderful - but its not going to happen, today anyway. and of course the rest of the drive train may just lunch if treated to 50% throttle of a 120 for a couple of hours straight.

in the 70's i knew a guy pretty well who had a sidecar on a late 60's shovel - i think he had it bored and stroked to 96" or over - but told me he was running stock cams since he never rode it over 65 but wanted it to pull really well at 55 [the speed limit at the time]

so since its winter and there is at least theoretically time and im going to do some futzing on the milling machine anyway... i want to at least consider various low risk options.

low risk  - hot rodding a sidecar or trike, in my opinion, requires a bit of care and thought - i dont want to just break it, i just got it paid for and i want to ride it for a few years. this issue of it dropping out of tune in a headwind is really the ONLY issue - but it is a complete pita.

thanks

to

[strokerjlk]

you are correct you can make what you have work. you are also correct the A/C doesn't do any thing on a stage 1 motor except net 4-5 hp after 4000 rpms. so do your 30 t sprocket. or I did the primary with a 49 tooth evolution ind. kit. they are a little pricey now days,but I liked just changing the gear and chain. seemed worth a little more money for me,not to have to do the belt.
throw a set of SE 255 cams in it,find someone that tunes the bike completely in all areas of operation.
the stock cams do a decent job of making tq. it is just the overlap profile generates heat. something else that is hurting you.


so keep your mufflers and A/C
install SE 255 cams
buy a tuning device from the dyno tuner you find that is up to your task.
and the tune.
cheaper than a bigger motor,and you really need the tuning device whatever you decide.

[timo482]

evolution ind sells two kits - one is a LOT of bux thats a larger dia clutch basket and longer chain

the other is less bux thats a engine sprocket and shorter chain - but it looks like it eliminatets the compensator - that seems dodgy since the compensators are getting beat to hell in these things i would expect the lack of a compensator would beat something else all to hell like the crank or the trans

thoughts?

to

[strokerjlk]

evolution ind sells two kits - one is a LOT of bux thats a larger dia clutch basket and longer chain

the other is less bux thats a engine sprocket and shorter chain - but it looks like it eliminatets the compensator - that seems dodgy since the compensators are getting beat to hell in these things i would expect the lack of a compensator would beat something else all to hell like the crank or the trans

thoughts?

to

this is the one I used on my bike. I used the stock basket,and it uses the stock comp. dosent matter SE or stock harley. I have had them both on mine. price is kinda all over the place now. I got mine when the first released them. they have went up and back down a couple times.

[Herko]

primary with a 49 tooth evolution ind. kit.


so keep your mufflers and A/C
install SE 255 cams
buy a tuning device from the dyno tuner you find that is up to your task and the tune.
cheaper than a bigger motor,and you really need the tuning device whatever you decide.

Great advice here, especially the blue.