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[petewerner]

"That sounds like alot of money, nearly $500, and then it runs nearly perfect from then on? For how long? Is it forever? That would be great! Or is it for the life of the bike? Or is it for 90 days or 30 or? ..."
        
         I expect it to last as long as any SERT, TTS, PCV, Power Vision, or Thundermax.      I'll need to double check, but I think it has a two year warranty.

"Now I spent less than $800 for everything including the purchase of the tuner, the install of map at the time of the engine upgrades and then the actual dyno tune as well."

         2dgcrew cited $435 for the Powrpro  vs  $800 for the tuner, map, and dyno.  IMO, the performance should be similar, depending on the skill of the dyno tech.  

I grew up in the Idaho Falls area.  It was a great place to grow up, but it's nice to live in a place now where one can ride year 'round.  Be safe and enjoy your ride.  Sounds like a nice set up.  

That was my point but I digressed . I and many, many others have had the little add-on box die and then u have a mess. Adding more complex on-board solutions can also make a stock or modified run better and if it dies and your changes are not too far from ECM settings, u can pull it out of the loop and still get home.
If u have the SERT, it isn't on-board adding that extra part to fail while riding out in the middle of nowhere.
Problem with the SERT is limited tuning capabilities as most Indy folks don't or won't use it. The HD dealer is using it, but dealer issues have kept alot of us from letting them do the work, and results may not be as skillfully done as when done by our favorite Indy. I was lucky perhaps, but I have a very good HD dealer that has 2 guys that are really good, my bike runs great because of their work. But reading on forums that isn't how people feel about their dealer. And if u so desire, u can buy software, cables,, training video and change settings yourself. Now I have the stuff to do it but not the desire to learn enough to actually do anything as I have a ton of other stuff to do and the ones (HDHD mechanics) that work on my bike have proven honest in telling me what I will feel when they were done and it has been so. I like to know this stuff, flo benches, cam profiles, and so many other areas that all add up to great performance if tuned together and correctly. I am glad I know others that do know nearly everything, that I can trust to make it all run great for me. And the tuning will all be copied on my little orange box for the dyno tune and future changes.
 Sorry to give u the impression that I'm dogging on the , Cobra, I'm more concerned about ALL add on boxes. My opinion is to change the settings in the ECM not add a box to fool the ECM into doing what u need it to.
Yeah this winter I have only had 2 or 3 days that I have not ridden. Up there in Idaho falls there is snow falling right now. But here in Boise, this valley has had no snow or ice on the road for more than a day at a time on a couple of occasions. I ride in everything BUT ice or snow, or below 20*F... I can't go outside of the valley, the passes are all too icy to escape thru so I get miles by doing all of my riding doing errands, work, or whatever needs me to go there.  

[HOGMIKE]

Keep in mind that the Delphi ecm in the new Harley's are one of the most sophisticated systems available in the bike world. They are still behind automotive applications, but, just about the best for bikes.
That said, I did a fair amount of research before I purchased my TTS mainly due to the capabilities it has to go back to stock calibrations. I've had this system on 3 of my newer bikes now, including my '09 that went on a "tour of the US" in '09 without any issues. That was about 30k miles that summer, pulling a trailer.
I DID take my dongle with me, along with me travel laptop just in case I wanted to change anything. I did change some settings from when I had the bike tuned in Florida and got into the Rockies. Different gas, altitude, etc.
I have club members here who have different tuning devices on their bikes and say they are happy with what they have. I DO NOT try to promote anything, if they like what they have, fine. Some are very happy with bone stock.
If they want to ride my new bike to compare to theirs, I usually let them. It takes them about a week to call and want what I have. LOL
What I have works fine for my riding and I'm not likely to change any time soon, unless Steve comes up with something I JUST HAVE TO HAVE this month! 
Do your homework, ride your buddies bikes, realize how YOU ride and what you want your bike to do, THEN make your decision.
JMHO, of course.
 

[glens]

Used it for and on what?  There's been discussion of it here fairly recently.  Please consult the search engine.

sitting here LMAO...if he was asking same question about TTS you walda been all over it..   Sorry, coudnt resist, but my chuckles just got ahead of me..

I was both waiting for the answer to what it would be used on (whether or not it would be on a closed-loop-ECM bike) and suggesting they look at the other thread, where I'm thinking I discussed it in fair detail.

[grc]

Pricing for options being discussed; all are available at discounted prices, but I'll use MSRP as a baseline comparator:

-SEPST, $459.95 plus $34.95 software CD plus $45.95 cable kit = $540.85 MSRP
-TTS MasterTune, $425.00 plus $35.00 serial cable plus $78.95 USB cable = $538.95 MSRP
-Cobra Auto Tune, $599.99 MSRP

Capabilities of the first two are similar, with the TTS having a few more features than the SEPST.  The Cobra offers no adjustments whatsoever, so if you don't like how they programmed it tough luck.   

Some like to skew the relative pricing by intimating you have to buy a dyno tune with the first two products.  The truth is you don't have to dyno tune to achieve good results.  The TTS in particular has many available "canned" maps that will match up with most common mods or even stock bikes and will be at least as good as any of the add-on box devices.  And both the TTS and SEPST have the capability for the owner to collect real time data and adjust the map himself, no dyno required.  One big difference is that you can use the first two products with a good professional dyno tuner to achieve even better results if you so choose, but of course you can't with the Cobra because there are no user adjustments available.

For those with unlimited resources and an adventurous spirit, I guess starting out with a less capable solution and then possibly buying one of the other more capable solutions later is OK.  For those who prefer not to pizz away hundreds of dollars needlessly, I recommend they get the most capable product for their money the first time.  IMHO, at this point in time I think the most capable product for the buck is the TTS MasterTune.  I don't own one, I don't have any financial interest in the company, and I don't personally know anyone involved with the company.  So I have no hidden agenda, I'm just telling it like I see it based on what I know about EFI.  If I were to buy a new Harley tomorrow, I would also buy the TTS MasterTune product to tune it, using one of Fullsac's maps and V-tune.  If we have any engineers from Cobra on the site who care to offer some proof to back up all the advertising puffery, I'm all ears (well, eye's actually). 


Jerry

[glens]

I think I said this in the (an?) other thread either referenced or at least alluded to in this one:  I believe I'd looked through their patent documentation on this product and was impressed by the novel concepts.  I believe the product would work well to improve fueling in cases where it was sub-standard for whatever reason.  It will not, however, make the engine run the best it possibly can if the reason the engine's not running so well is the spark timing is not optimal.  I didn't get the impression the unit tries to achieve any fixed "AFR" condition, but that it merely tries more and less fuel, comparing engine acceleration rates.  Obviously, fueling changes that make an engine gain speed the most quickly are going to provide the best-running (power-producing) situation for any given setup; in terms of fuel requirements only.

I don't believe it's a fair value, though, especially at the current MSRP.  And it'd have to be nigh unto cost-free if it required disabling closed-loop operation or impaired it in any way.

[Midnight Rider]

There's a couple of points in this whole thread that stand out to me.

First, I think the consensus of opinion, at least on this forum, is that is is better not to have an add-on device if equally viable, or better, alternatives exist.  So that would be saying that something like the PC or this Powerpro is not as good a choice, not because it won't get the bike running better, but because it is just something else added to the system that might fail.  And it's capabilities are more limited in scope.  I've been on here, mostly, since '06...not nearly as long as some, but a lot longer than others...and can count on one hand (even Twolane's hand) the number of times I can remember a HD ECM actually failing.  But, I could have missed some.  On the other hand, I can think of several occasions when a PC has taken a dump on somebody.  Not often, but it can/does happen.  Generally, it's not a HUGE deal, particularly if major mods have not been made to the engine, and IF the person knows how to do side of the road diagnostics to enable him/her to remove the device, and thus the problem.

I won't even get into the replacement ECM's, like Thundermax, for a number of reasons.

Just a few short years ago, you basically had two viable courses of action to properly tune a bike...the PC and the SERT (yea, yea, there were some others, but those are the main two).  Most independent tuners worked with the PC, and did a great job with it.  SOME HD dealers did a great job with the SERT, but the results from dealer to dealer variied a great deal, and often the local dealer could not be trusted to do a proper tune, with either device.  When I got the '11 bike, I read a chit load of stuff on here, and other places, about newer, better alternatives to the PC and devices similar to it.  I chose the TTS for a couple of reasons:  They used to build the SERT, so had a great base for development of their own improved device, and it appeared to be relatively easy to use, without being dependent on a dealer or some other tuning shop.  That has proven to be true, at least in my case.  It does not reside on the bike, so the probability of it taking a crap while sitting in a box in my basement is astronomical.  The probability of an add on device taking a crap is a lot more probable...not likely, but more probable.  So, after private discussions with a couple of folks on here who I trust implicitly, because they know a hell of a lot more than me, I chose the easiest, simplest route.  The TTS.  I will likely never use all of it's capability, but neither am I likely to use the full capability of Microsoft Word, or Adobe Lightroom, but I know the capability is there if I ever need it.

[Twolanerider]

can count on one hand (even Twolane's hand)

Hey!!!   

[2dgcrew]

I really appreciate all the response about this product.  I understood that a dyno is not needed with this product - also that it is constantly adjusting to temp, humid, elevation etc... So it is there if you were to ride into the mountains or have different gas it should accomodate for those differences.  Again not being very knowledgeable on the whole subject of tuning, I can understand the concern of having an add on product that can fail, especially on the road.  The bike I am planning to install on is 2011 cvo sg in black diamond and crimson tag, I am coming off of 2007 fxstsse, deep abys blue and blue pearl that had sert and samson exhaust.  I was very happy with that bike and so far extremely happy wth this bike but it just doesn't run right on pump gas, under load on the highway it pings like crazy.  MOCO said that they can't do anything about it they told me to try additive in fuel which worked. 

Getting back to subject on hand, the cobra is supposed to be contantly adjustiing and monitoring up to 80 times a second during riding, always adjusting to give you optimal fuel/air , can anyone maybe explain to me how the other products are better  in depth  Please remember I have not made a purchase yet and am really looking for the best product for my bike.  If there is another blog that will provide more information on this subject - please point me in the right direction.

Thanks so much I hope I am not offending any of you guys - just trying to understand more!

[glens]

it is constantly adjusting to temp, humid, elevation etc.

It isn't doing any of those things.  The bike's ECM handles every one of those functions, with this device installed or not.  All this does is a two-fold process of (1) essentially altering the target O2 sensor voltage output for a little richer closed-loop operation and (2) continually checking for best-response during acceleration by varying the fuel delivery and comparing the engine acceleration rates to the changes.

Item (1) can handily be performed by any ECM reprogramming kit, and in a better fashion because this unit can only (effectively) change the target sensor output in a global fashion whereas the reprogramming kits can (if desired) alter the targets differently in different operational areas.

Additionally, there are limits to the range of O2 sensor output target voltages, and though it's not likely with a factory (stock) ECM calibration, the workable range could easily be exceeded by this unit since it does not know what it should output to the ECM to meet the expected (programmed target) sensor voltage(s).  Whether or how complicated its programming is in this regard is a question which should be asked of their techs before taking a decision on purchasing this unit.

So it is there if you were to ride into the mountains or have different gas it should accomodate for those differences.

Again, this unit really doesn't perform either of those functions.  They are still handled entirely by the native ECM.

I can understand the concern of having an add on product that can fail, especially on the road.

Yes, this is a very real concern.  If it does fail, gracefully, you're either "down" on the side of the road or you must get in to all the connectors and swap the injectors and O2 sensors directly back into the bike's wiring harness to carefully continue on your way.  If the failure is not graceful, you may lose injectors, O2 sensors, and/or the ECM as well.  By "lose" I mean "need to replace".  I'm not suggesting the "ungraceful" failure is even remotely likely, but it is an introduced-by-this-unit possibility.

The bike I am planning to install on is 2011 cvo sg in black diamond and crimson tag, I am coming off of 2007 fxstsse, deep abys blue and blue pearl that had sert and samson exhaust.  I was very happy with that bike and so far extremely happy wth this bike but it just doesn't run right on pump gas, under load on the highway it pings like crazy.  MOCO said that they can't do anything about it they told me to try additive in fuel which worked.

Well, you never mentioned the colors of your bike before.  They're probably the reason the bike doesn't run right on pump gas.  :-)  Seriously, though, I have to ask if you're using the grade of fuel called-for in your owner's manual?  And whether you've performed any modifications to the breathing configuration of the bike?

the cobra is supposed to be contantly adjustiing and monitoring up to 80 times a second during riding, always adjusting to give you optimal fuel/air

80 times per second is 4800 times per minute.  If that figure is the total number of computations it can achieve, then 4800 RPM is the limit it can handle acting on every engine revolution.  If that figure is per cylinder, than it can operate on every revolution up to 9600 RPM.  That's a question their tech support should be asked to clarify.

can anyone maybe explain to me how the other products are better  in depth

Which other products?  Are you interested in limiting that request to piggyback units or can ECM reprogramming equipment be included as well?

Please remember I have not made a purchase yet and am really looking for the best product for my bike.  If there is another blog that will provide more information on this subject - please point me in the right direction.

There is another forum which could be considered a better venue, but this one ain't far behind and to be fair, the subject was brought up here and can be adequately covered here.

You've already been told what the best product for your bike is, and that's the TTS Mastertune kit.

If your exhaust system works properly in terms of O2 sensor placement and you can follow relatively simple directions coupled with an ability to operate the motorcycle in a comprehensive manner, you would not need to place your bike on a dyno to get your own good tune with the TTS kit.  Your ECM would be properly programmed for your running parts and you'd have no more chance of EFI parts stranding you on the road than you did when you first picked up the bike from the place where you bought it new.  Plus, the only dis- and re-assembly you'd have to perform on your bike is removing/replacing a saddlebag and side cover to gain temporary access to your ECM's wiring harness data connector.

[Midnight Rider]

2d...Now that everybody knows what bike this is going on, it helps a lot.  An even bigger help would be to know if you have made any changes to the exhaust system, or intake.  The intake that comes stock on the bike is plenty sufficient already, so hopefully the dealer or someone else did not talk you into changing out that part of the system.  On a more or less stock bike, the Ventilator air intake provides plenty of air to the engine, unlike the stock intakes of a few years ago.  The only reason to change it is if you just don't like the looks of the cover.

If you've changed the exhaust, then that's an entirely different matter.  The stock ECM is capable of adapting to putting a pair of slip on mufflers on the bike to make it sound better, but when you change the stock header pipe, thus removing the restrictive catalytic converter, located in the collector area of the stock header, it flows so much more air through the intake/exhaust that the stock "program" in the ECM cannot properly adjust to meet the new need for more fuel.  There are a LOT of dealers who will tell you that the bike is capable of adapting to a full exhaust change, but they are WRONG.  The bike will run, but not well.

If you are experiencing a lot of pinging, that is not a good thing.  If you are using Premium pump gas, that should not be happening, and you should NOT be required to add a fuel additive to stop the pinging.  Unless you have some unusual riding habits.  If the dealer is telling you that is necessary, then they should provide the additive free of charge.  If you purchased a new car, you would expect it to run properly on the recommened fuel, right?  The same should be true of your $32K HD.  So, IF you have not made a total exhaust change, IMO, you should demand that the bike run properly in stock configuration.  They may need to reflash the ECM.  Then at least you have a good starting point for further discussion.  The TTS can make even a totally stock bike drive better, but that is another discussion.

BTW, the ECM, as already mentioned, is perfectly capable of adapting to differences in humidity, altitude, ambient air temps, etc.  It is not a carburator.

[lilcoot]

CVOthunder, if i already had a SEPRT, I wouldn't even consider swapping it for a Powrpro.  There's absolutely no reason to do so.  My impression, with what I've gleaned from different sites, is that on metric vtwins like M109s and Star's 113 motor, the Powrpro outperforms the other tuners like you said.  On Harleys, however, I don't get the feeling there's that much of a difference.  There are lots of different tuners to choose from for Harleys with EFI, and lots of people have spent hours optimizing their performance. 

I was stuck north of Rexburg, ID once for 3 months in '84-'85 Dec thru March.  Temp never got above -40F for 3 days once.  Never want to do that again. 

[lilcoot]

"For those with unlimited resources and an adventurous spirit, I guess starting out with a less capable solution and then possibly buying one of the other more capable solutions later is OK.  For those who prefer not to pizz away hundreds of dollars needlessly, I recommend they get the most capable product for their money the first time."

Isn't pizzing away hundreds (thousands) of dollars needlessly the whole point of having a Harley?     The reason this forum exists is because we pay $35000 for a bike, then replace the exhaust, ecm, seat, handlebars, forks, etc, so that it'll finally ride the way it we want it to. 

If we all bought the most capable product for the money, we probably would have bought Gold Wings, BMW 1600 gtls, or Ninja 1400s.  Thousands and thousands of dollars cheaper, and will pretty much run circles around their stock HD counterparts.  I looked at all of them - well, not the Ninja - and the CVO was by far the most appealing to me.  I wouldn't trade it for any other bike.    

Just sayin'

[lilcoot]

glens, now THAT is a great response!  Thank you.  You just brought a machine gun to a knife fight. 

The piggyback  vs  ECM is a really good point.  I've heard of power commanders, stock Delphis, and others taking a dump and stranding folks, and the powrpros are bound to have some hiccups, too.  The only bright spot is that, if a Powrpro goes south, it would take 15 minutes to remove it and ride home with the stock ECM intact. 

I'm pretty sure a TTS mastertune is in my future, but not this year.  I've already exceeded my "pizzing away" allotment for the year.



In the meantime, will someone please explain to me why my Powrpro works so damn well???

[glens]

In the meantime, will someone please explain to me why my Powrpro works so damn well???

It doesn't work as well as you think it does.  Oh, it might've before you changed out the exhaust plumbing, and no doubt it's helping with that, but in a couple weeks when you change out your cams, when it'll still be helping sort things out, but even less yet, I'm thinking you'll not be quite so satisfied.  The unit probably works very well to put a nice polish on a tune that's close already, like was the situation when you first got it.  Changing out the exhaust plumbing for a different type of system lessens its chances for success, to a degree, but that change alone wouldn't usually be calling for any drastic changes in spark timing.  Changing out the cams too, depending on how differently they work compared to what you have now, will not only be wanting some different spark timing, but the best times to poll the MAP sensor may be different as well.  Since this unit only alters the fueling portion of the tune while you're altering at least one, maybe two, other areas that the ECM would really like to know about, your chances of success/happiness are diminishing accordingly as you stack up the changes.

Good luck, and be sure to let us know how it turns out for you.

[lilcoot]

Thanks, glens.  I plan on having Jim at Metal Dragon do some work soon, and I'm excited to see how things go.

I think I've used up Jerry's last raw nerve.  Do you think I should send him roses and a box of chocolates?  Maybe a hug would make things better?  Whatever happens, I need to be on his good side, so he'll help me pick up the pieces when the Powrpro self destructs just as its warranty expires.