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[roadrydr]

I have a 2011 FLTRUSE and have added Khrome Werks part #200650 exhaust headers(to eliminate the catalytic converter). I am running the stock 4" mufflers with no modification.(I'm thinking of adding Fullsac 2" baffles).

I am adding an Arlen Ness Derby Sucker part #18-370. I would think my local dealer would be happy to sell me a tuner without hesitation, but I've been told by the tech that it is not necessary to add any kind of tuner with these modifications; that the ECM will automatically adjust air and fuel ratios.

I was pleased with the power and torque of the stock set up. I just wanted to eliminate the "sewing machine sound coming out of the mufflers" and reduce the heat generated. I am very happy with the exhaust tone since adding the headers.(Fairly quiet at highway speed but throaty when on the throttle) and the heat coming off the engine seems to be less. I do not have any dyno numbers to compare before and after, but seat of the pants; definite torque improvement with a slight increase in mpg.

I would like to improve my throttle response(very slight lag on hard acceleration) and eliminate the occasional MINOR decel pop). Also a little more torque is my goal(I ride a lot of 2 up with a full load on).

1) Will adding the Ness air cleaner alone give me a little more performance over the SE air cleaner?
2) Is it necessary to add Fullsac 2" baffles to the stock mufflers to help the engine "breathe" better?( I want to keep the exhaust looking stock)
3) Is the dealer tech correct in that no tuner is needed with the aforementioned mods? If not, which tuner has had good result with similar modifications to the stock 110" CVO motor? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[firefighter156]

Changing Intake, headers and muffler rework I would purchase a tuner.  The Mods may seem minor but the bike will run better in the long run regardless with a tuner and proper tune.  My personal opinion is that there is no down side to adding a tuner.  With that being said, I would look at all your options before going to the dealer. There are after market choices you can purchase and do yourself as well. Good Luck!!

[Smitty2u]

I would buy a tuner.  There could be as much as a 10% gain in HP & Torque with a properly tuned bike which has a less restrictive exhaust system.  The stock breather that comes with the CVO's is already a high flow setup.

[Midnight Rider]

1.)  No.  The air cleaner that comes on the bike already flows plenty of air.  Unless you don't like the looks of it, there's no need to change it.
2.)  Changing the cores in the mufflers to a straight thru design (like Fullsacs) will help the motor flow more air, plus give you a bit better performance.  It will also be louder than the stock muffler cores, but not obnoxiously loud.
3.)  No, the dealer is not correct.  The motor will run, but it will be leaner than it should be to run well.  If you do the Fullsac cores, I would also get the TTS tuner from Fullsac and use their canned map for a good starting point.  But IMO, you definitely need a tuner to improve both performance and drivability.

[glens]

I've been told by the tech that it is not necessary to add any kind of tuner with these modifications; that the ECM will automatically adjust air and fuel ratios.

Look at it this way:  there are at least 200 individual places for hard-coded fuel-calculation airflow variables, per cylinder, in your EFI calibration while the number of "adaptive" variables numbers only 24 per cylinder to cover the same area.  How well do you really think this much-coarser coverage will serve to accommodate breathing-parts changes?

Your best bet is to populate those finer-grained places with appropriate hard-coded variables so the "adaptive" part of the system can have the most wiggle-room available to it (nicely centered in its range) for performing the task it's really there for, which by the way is not compensating for breathing parts swap-outs.

Yes, the adaptive abilities can usually have limited success in keeping the engine from blowing up in the face of configuration changes.  If that's what the tech had said he/she would be correct.  Maybe that's what they did say and you merely misunderstood, but it's most likely they actually meant to convey the notion you portrayed above, and that's sad because it's wrong and they are supposed to be the ones who know such things.

[North Georgia Hawg]

The ECM as it comes from H-D is programmed to a quite lean AFR to begin with, to meet EPA standards. If you put a more free-flowing exhaust on the bike, it will be even leaner for the larger airflow. Running too lean is bad for performance, will make the engine run much hotter. The ECM can adapt to a quite limited extent - but not anywhere near to the optimum AFR for each cylinder at all RPMs and manifold pressure (KPa) in the normal riding range. 

No two engines, even if they are running the exact same hardware configuration, will breathe identically... manufacturing tolerances will produce small differences in the way two "identical" engines perform. A tuner enables you to get the mixture correct all across the performance range, which will enable your engine to deliver all the performance it can. If remapping weren't needed, there wouldn't be any tuners on the market... at least not for long.

I, along with many others here, use a TTS MasterTune unit, on each of our two bikes. The TTS enables you to make all kinds of changes to many different variables to get the AFR and VE tables correct in the ECM for your specific engine, using data collected from the running engine during data collection "tuning" runs. The map can be iteratively improved, and flashed into the ECM for the next run. If you do it right, after 6-10 runs you're going to have a pretty accurate map for your specific components. Once the ECM map is fairly close to the ideal settings, the ECM doesn't have to continually try to adjust the settings within its limits - because they are already pretty darn close to ideal. Getting the ECM map right for a specific engine is what tuning is all about.

I have been hold by people like Frank of Drago's Bike Works that the Ventilator A/C on the SE bikes has plenty of airflow capability for the 110" engine, unless you start making a lot of fairly significant mods to the heads, compression, etc. I had thought about going to a Big Sucker II or a Zippers A/C - but Frank told me that Ventilator provides plenty of airflow for a basically stock 110" engine.

[roadrydr]

Hey guys, thanks for the rapid response. I guess it's unanimous; tuner IS necessary for optimum performance with all the mods I intend to do. Just to be clear I am only adding the Ness a/c to change the look. I don't really like the oval shape of the stock a/c. I am going to use the derby cover from a FLHCTUSE3 on the Ness Derby Sucker.
I may hold off on the Fullsac baffles until I can score a set of take off mufflers from a 2011/2012 FLTRUSE, FLHCTUSE, FLTRXSE, or FLHXSE. Then I can retain my stock mufflers in case of any law enforcement issues(NY state, as others, have been enforcing the loud exhaust laws more frequently).

Can I also hold off on the TTS MasterTune until I have the muffler mods done?

Midnight Rider, I see you have the same bike in rio red. I assume you're happy with your Fullsac Stage I upgrades?
I see you have a 13" Cee Baileys also. May I ask how tall you are? What would you say the advantage is to switching from stock CVO shield? I am 5'7" with a 29" inseam and I'm fairly happy with the stock shield. I can see over it with no problem but I experience some acceptable buffeting at the top of my helmet. I would like the look of a shorter dark shield but do not want to get a face full of wind. The 13" is what is recommended by Cee Baileys website for my height. Are you happy with this shield?
Thanks again, guys for all your help.

[Midnight Rider]

If all you do is change to the Arlen Ness A/F, it won't run any different than it does right now.  However, I would bet that it's already in a leaner running condition than it was before you put the new header pipe on the bike...eliminating that CAT is removing a BIG restriction in the exhaust system, so even with the stock muffler cores, it's pumping a lot more air than it did stock.  I would not call the Fullsac 2" cores LOUD, particularly if you leave the packing around the cores in the mufflers when installing them.  They ARE louder than stock, and can rumble pretty good when you crack open the throttle, but they still are much quieter than a lot I've heard.  Plus, the outside of the cans still have the EPA stamp on them, which you can always point out to the LEO, if you get stopped or questioned.  At steady throttle positions, they are not loud at all, IMO.  You could always do the 1.75" cores, or save the old cores and drill a hole in them to re-insert (a bolt holds the Fullsac cores in), if necessary.  But unless you rip and roar in areas where one should not do that in the first place, I doubt you'd have any issues.  But I don't know how strict they are up there in New Yawk.  The Klockworks pipe you put on is basically a true dual from what I can tell by the photos on line.  Quite honestly, a completely stock bike can benefit a great deal with the TTS tuner, just in terms of better throttle response and drivability.  Plus, you can adjust your speedometer to actually be correct. 

I'm between 5'7" and 5'8"...I used to be 5'8", but I'm old and shrinking, so haven't measured in the last several years.  I have a 29" inseam.  The stock windshield for me was too tall, but I HATE looking through a windshield, or having the top in my line of sight when going up a hill, etc.  I could see over the stock, but only if I sat completely straight up and was on level ground.  It bugged the crap out of me.  I ordered the Cee Bailey in a 14" first (they have changed their measurement data), and while it was much better, it was still in my line of sight too often, so I sent it back and they trimmed another inch off for free.  Now, the only time the top is in my line of sight is when going up a fairly steep hill, and I can see over if I try a little harder.  On flat ground it's perfect.  But, and this is a big but, I always wear a full face modular helmet.  My current helmet, a Shark Evoline 2, converts to a true 3/4, and is still fine with the 13" shield.  Plus, the Cee Bailey mounting system is better than stock, IMO...the rubber grommets are better/more effective.  The shield itself is MUCH better quality than stock...less flexing with wind.  I have the light tint on mine.  If there is one downside to shields designed like the Cee Bailey, and there are several similar designs, it is that the curved part of the design distorts things...however, you don't really look through that part.  Even in twisties, you're looking around the side of the shield, or should be, and it's better than stock in that regard.

[Midnight Rider]

P.S.   I can't comment on the buffeting for the BSR.  She's new to riding, so doesn't complain, as she has no basis for comparison, and I don't ride bitch...   She also wears a FF modular helmet, year 'round.