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[Twolanerider]

Judging by that response I'll have to guess that you and Steve have some antagonistic history?

Steve may have in the past done/said stuff such as you suggest, but he sure hasn't done it in this thread.  At least not that I can see.  If one didn't already know, they'd have no idea by anything he's said here that he markets a product that could considered to be competition to the kit in use as the subject of this thread.  Right?

How does the EMS kit calibrate the sensors' closed-loop controllers?

Hasn't done it in this thread... To the degree he's done it in the past.  But it's a baby step thing in his history.  And it's gotten so old. 

Steve can and has been a valuable resource within the community here.  When he's not being an outright salesman or watching his own back (even to his own detriment).  His tendency toward the latter in times past has worn thin enough that his good intentions in this thread (or others) are watched with the proverbial short leash.

As a group here we're lucky Glen.  There are some members here that are professionals within the field that participate as members.   Guys that don't see their membership as a sales medium within a target rich environment and choose to be another "one of the guys."  One of the guys with potentially more insight, background and knowledge and a willingness to share those things; but still just one of the guys.

There are others that are perpetually in competition.  If one of them chatters up within a thread another will have to attempt to step above and beyond to score points or, potentially, score a sale.  And there are those few who have to defend themselves and their wares, ad infinitum and ad nauseum, whether their wares are challenged or questioned or just because they might be compared.

Those latter categories get so old so fast.  For a bunch of guys that just want to hang around and chat about the bikes it's a pain in the ass.  That some are judged by their history is unfortunate but understandable. 

You, for example, in your short time here have seemed almost nothing but helpful; with an intent to chat bikes and share an obviously well informed knowledge of the systems of which you choose to speak.  And, thanks to the Travel Gods, you've done with so without a bit of the CYA or need to demean some perceived competition that has in the past been all too prevalent from others.

[hawgzilla]

I have to say that what IS getting old is the Steve bashing any time he tries to educate the public on what he knows a great deal about.  He only posts the truth about the systems but some people don't seem to want to hear that.  If one has a personal beef with Steve, it's my opinion that it should not be aired here.  I would like to say a big thank you to Steve for taking the time to educate us with the facts. JMHO

[Twolanerider]

I have to say that what IS getting old is the Steve bashing any time he tries to educate the public on what he knows a great deal about.  He only posts the truth about the systems but some people don't seem to want to hear that.  If one has a personal beef with Steve, it's my opinion that it should not be aired here.  I would like to say a big thank you to Steve for taking the time to educate us with the facts. JMHO

Not at all unfair to be dissatisfied with my (and others) reaction to the man.  If it's "getting old" to you I'm sorry.  What got old (a long time ago and repetitively) to me (and others) was Steve's delivery method of the "education" you praise him for offering. 

He's been a poster child for "pedantic."   The all too regular whiplash reactions to not just comparisons with but even mentions of other products is every bit as unwelcome as is the responses to him that you don't care for.  In this case, however, there is an obvious chicken and egg. The egg won't have need to crack if the chicken doesn't squawk.

[glens]

The egg won't have need to crack if the chicken doesn't squawk.

Well, that's rather what I was getting at earlier in that this time it seems the egg'd got cracked regardless.

Thanks for the kind closing words earlier.  I favor the one kit over the others not because it's the one I chose (repeatedly now), rather I use it because in my estimation it's the best (even still) currently available.  Other than that I don't have any cocks in the fight. 

What is the mechanism the EMS uses to calibrate its O2 sensors' closed-loop controllers?  A "free air calibration" is the "usual" method and works well-enough to tie things together at one end of the operational spectrum, but if there's any non-linearity (like maybe with the factory-trimmed resistor removed?) it concentrates the error all the way to the other end, more where the sensor actually gets used.  And it can't be performed well without dangling the sensor outside the pipe in an unenclosed area.  So I'm wondering how EMS does it, if you'd be so kind...

[captdave221]

I have to say that what IS getting old is the Steve bashing any time he tries to educate the public on what he knows a great deal about.  He only posts the truth about the systems but some people don't seem to want to hear that.  If one has a personal beef with Steve, it's my opinion that it should not be aired here.  I would like to say a big thank you to Steve for taking the time to educate us with the facts. JMHO

+1 HERE! 

[Twolanerider]

Well, that's rather what I was getting at earlier in that this time it seems the egg'd got cracked regardless.

Thanks for the kind closing words earlier.  I favor the one kit over the others not because it's the one I chose (repeatedly now), rather I use it because in my estimation it's the best (even still) currently available.  Other than that I don't have any cocks in the fight. 

What is the mechanism the EMS uses to calibrate its O2 sensors' closed-loop controllers?  A "free air calibration" is the "usual" method and works well-enough to tie things together at one end of the operational spectrum, but if there's any non-linearity (like maybe with the factory-trimmed resistor removed?) it concentrates the error all the way to the other end, more where the sensor actually gets used.  And it can't be performed well without dangling the sensor outside the pipe in an unenclosed area.  So I'm wondering how EMS does it, if you'd be so kind...

Yes, repetitive squawking can lead to unfortunate cracking .

As for the EMS package.  No need for me nor anyone else to put words in their mouth:

[porthole]

Would be interesting to hear a reply from RP regarding this and their modification. ??

I sent my info and a link to this page so I didn't have to duplicate my efforts to RP. I received an acknowledgment of my concern and it was being passed on to the engineers.

[porthole]

Steve-Don or Don-Steve - c'mon now, lets not be pissing in each others Cheerios. I think we are all learning a little something here.
Sometimes people in the know or really educated about something tend to not convey exactly what they mean and sometimes they forget where they are going with it, stepping on some toes along the way.

Something I learned so far, my hi tech expensive D&D Fat Cats are built with apparently no inclination to actually making the O2 system function correctly. Just found on the Daytona page a representation of their O2 pipe weld nut, it is about 1/3 the length the weld nut that is installed by D&D.
Scroll down about 2/3 of this page
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/WEGO3.html

I learned a really long time ago, that when reading, if you come to a word you do not understand and continue reading, most of what you read past the unknown word is irrelevant.
Don - I'm gonna have to start charging you  soon 

[porthole]

Geez, I erased my own post 

[glens]

He's referring to the place where Steve mentioned the trim resistor that's set at the sensor factory and according to their documentation is not to be removed.

[porthole]

He's referring to the place where Steve mentioned the trim resistor that's set at the sensor factory and according to their documentation is not to be removed.

Really? So Bosch says do not do it and Rev buys a kit from DTT that says the trimming network is not needed

......needlessly offered a critical assessment of a competitor's product in a sarcastic, antagonistic tone.....

He's referring to the place where Steve mentioned the trim resistor that's set at the sensor factory and according to their documentation is not to be removed.

Sorry, I don't see it as a "sarcastic, antagonistic tone", just back to the presentation that I mentioned above.

I picked the RP kit based on what I knew at the time, have no reservations about it. Although the implementation of the kit seems to be an issue with my  bike.

Have to wonder how many more "auto-tuners" out there that have been designed to a high degree of technical know how and are mitigated by poor workmanship on an exhaust weld nut installation.

I for one did not order a $700 exhaust with O2 bungs thinking I would have to spend time, money and aggravation to make the exhaust work as I intended it in the first place.

Could have skipped that step and just had weld nuts installed in my V&H true duals.
Which come to think of it, I may just do that if all this work doesn’t drop the temps a little bit on the rear pipe.

I did not see any low end torque improvement, so the 2-->1 may be a moot point anyway.

[Unbalanced]

Duane,

In all the years I have been dinking with this stuff I have never had a commerical true dual out perform a half decent 2 into 1 pipe at low end.   Could you please post the dyno sheets that show where you had no gain as it might paint the picture better.   If there is truly no gain on the dyno are you sure that your exhaust reading is correct at each cylinder as this isnt passing the sniff test.  /no pun intended

I do suggest though that we follow at least one rule here and that is not to trust your seat of the pants diagnosis.

/stir stir stir

[Steve Cole]

Look you guys are all big boys so if posting of the truthful facts is a problem here, so be it. I put up the real factual information along with the data to backup just what I've said and if you really believe that any of these aftermarket guys (including me) knows more than Bosch does about Bosch sensors then by all means do not follow the instructions from the manufacture Bosch.

As for Twolanerider comments I've just learned that when anyone disagrees with him he goes on the attack. He is unwilling to go learn the truth about it even when handed the documents that explain it.

[110tHunDer]

 
At one time, I was interested in this thread.

[glens]

Steve, it may be that the trim pot on the controller is a suitable substitute for the resistor provided by Bosch at the time of manufacture, I don't know.  I don't think the pot would be less susceptible to temperature and vibration than a fixed resistor, but it likely suffices at least for a time.  If I were using those sensors I'd rather calibrate them from a bottle of the results of actual stoich burn than all the way at one end of the scale, I know that much.