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[ultrafxr]

At one time, I was interested in this thread.

I still am.   

[timo482]

i for one am VERY interested in the technical aspects of this discussion.

im also interested in why rp quit making the things [or more correctly only make them for a narrow range of years]

i liked the idea that they could turn a 04 and newer open loop bike into a closed loop bike as im on the hook to get a college grad a bike in about a year and dont have as much cake to do that with as i had when i made the deal in the first year of high school [like 90 percent less cake than i had back then... sigh]

and while im at that ive been really looking at how to make a older twin cam into a closed loop delphi bike on the cheap to provide said grad what was promised within the meager funds - other than turning over my bike to make good. [those that want to whine and throw rocks - will you even think of turning your own ride over to somebody to make good on a promise? hmmm?]

so please - steve and all keep bringing the info out  - i want the market of good ideas to flow & thank ALL of you for talking about what works and how and why - and please lets quit throwing rocks at each other - all the kids see is old guys throwing rocks

to

[porthole]

Did anyone look at the difference in bungs/weld nuts that DTT has on their website compared to what D&D puts on the pipes?

[hogasm]

Did anyone look at the difference in bungs/weld nuts that DTT has on their website compared to what D&D puts on the pipes?

Yes

[porthole]

In all the years I have been dinking with this stuff I have never had a commerical true dual out perform a half decent 2 into 1 pipe at low end.   

I said "I" did not see an improvement. There may be some increase in low end torque, but certainly not enough to offset the amount of heat that comes off those pipes, especially the rear pipe.
Talking overall experience here.

Could you please post the dyno sheets that show where you had no gain as it might paint the picture better.   

Harry  - you already know what Dyno I used...........................

If there is truly no gain on the dyno are you sure that your exhaust reading is correct at each cylinder as this isnt passing the sniff test.  /no pun intended

Well given the visuals on my sensors, they may very well not be passing any sniff test.

I do suggest though that we follow at least one rule here and that is not to trust your seat of the pants diagnosis.

The two dynos closest to me are both dealers. I would not let either of the 2 dealers even change my oil, let alone beat on my bike with a dyno.

I'm just not interested in squeaking out every last pony from the engine. As it is now, even with the  current issues, it will still womp all over your bike.
Maybe next time I am down there you will show up for the "meet" instead of leaving me hanging around to fend for myself. 

[HOGMIKE]

I said "I" did not see an improvement. There may be some increase in low end torque, but certainly not enough to offset the amount of heat that comes off those pipes, especially the rear pipe.
Talking overall experience here.

Harry  - you already know what Dyno I used...........................

Well given the visuals on my sensors, they may very well not be passing any sniff test.

The two dynos closest to me are both dealers. I would not let either of the 2 dealers even change my oil, let alone beat on my bike with a dyno.

I'm just not interested in squeaking out every last pony from the engine. As it is now, even with the  current issues, it will still womp all over your bike.
Maybe next time I am down there you will show up for the "meet" instead of leaving me hanging around to fend for myself. 

COOL!
A CHALLENGE!!

 

[Unbalanced]

I said "I" did not see an improvement. There may be some increase in low end torque, but certainly not enough to offset the amount of heat that comes off those pipes, especially the rear pipe.
Talking overall experience here.

Harry  - you already know what Dyno I used...........................

Well given the visuals on my sensors, they may very well not be passing any sniff test.

The two dynos closest to me are both dealers. I would not let either of the 2 dealers even change my oil, let alone beat on my bike with a dyno.

I'm just not interested in squeaking out every last pony from the engine. As it is now, even with the  current issues, it will still womp all over your bike.
Maybe next time I am down there you will show up for the "meet" instead of leaving me hanging around to fend for myself.  

Duane,

The dyno you refer to while trustworthy is not as accurate LOL    This has nothing to do with every pony just the idea that down low your trustworthy tool is leading astray in regards to your true duals out performing your 2 into 1.   In the first 2700 rpm I believe you will find a large difference of area under the graph that you were / would not achieve with true duals.

Head up to Rockaway and see Ken Puzio at Blackhills.    

http://www.blackhillscustomparts.com/

http://www.blackhillscustomparts.com/dyno.htm

What meet are you talking about Duane, havent heard of you making bikeweek or biketoberfest yet?   You have my cell number dunno why you wouldnt have called to say you were here.  One would think had you been here you would have wanted front row seats to the spanking that was delivered.   

[Black Diamond]

Harry

I'm not sure the blanket statement that 2 -1 always has better bottom end than TD.

In the attached dyno
Fat Cat 2 - 1 w/ Quiet Baffles as tuned by Brian @ T-Man - green line
BUB 7 TD as tuned by Bere @ Gutterridge - blue line

Butt dyno - no difference but I like the looks and sound of the TD. FWIW.

[cvobiker]

Yes, all O2 sensors draw air in through the wire harness area. Those are a Bosch LSU4.2 Broad Band sensor and they have been modified, which Bosch recommends against doing. While I can't say anything about the modifications what I can tell you is that when the plug was cut off the end and replaced, they cut out the trimming network that Bosch had in it. Each sensor that Bosch makes of this model gets tested and then trimmed in for proper calibration. The trimming is done and placed into the connector and this is why Bosch says DONOT cut or modify the O2 assemble but you've got what you've got.

Maybe that's why (both) DTT and RP have a free air calibration module with their system..  I think your smart enough to realize this is a suitable arrangement to keep the Bosch LSUF sensor in GOOD working order, which by the way has been approved by Bosch..  But realizing you have other motives to support your very own product, i guess you think you can make your claims to confuse a lot of folks... BTW - Twolane made some very accurate accounts in thread #60,,,  he defiantly hit nail on the head..  

For the confused folks..  read this tech note at DTT     http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_wego.html   HEADING: Why do WEGO systems use a Deutsch connector in place of the Bosch connector on the wide-band sensor?  And the same would apply to Revolution Performance EMS

[Unbalanced]

Harry

I'm not sure the blanket statement that 2 -1 always has better bottom end than TD.

In the attached dyno
Fat Cat 2 - 1 w/ Quiet Baffles as tuned by Brian @ T-Man - green line
BUB 7 TD as tuned by Bere @ Gutterridge - blue line

Butt dyno - no difference but I like the looks and sound of the TD. FWIW.

I have never had that happen with the bikes / pipes I have done.  Would love to see Bere tune the D&D vs. someone else tune.   Not saying they can't be close or that there arent exceptions to the rules, but typically its not been what I have run into.

[Steve Cole]

Maybe that's why (both) DTT and RP have a free air calibration module with their system..  I think your smart enough to realize this is a suitable arrangement to keep the Bosch LSUF sensor in GOOD working order, which by the way has been approved by Bosch..  But realizing you have other motives to support your very own product, i guess you think you can make your claims to confuse a lot of folks... BTW - Twolane made some very accurate accounts in thread #60,,,  he defiantly hit nail on the head..  

For the confused folks..  read this tech note at DTT     http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_wego.html   HEADING: Why do WEGO systems use a Deutsch connector in place of the Bosch connector on the wide-band sensor?  And the same would apply to Revolution Performance EMS

Since Bosch clearly states in all there manuals and installation documents NOT to do it where do you come up with it is approved by Bosch? Please provide some documentation from Bosch showing this. My claims have all come with the supporting documents so they are not really my claims they are Bosch's claims!

[cvobiker]

Since Bosch clearly states in all there manuals and installation documents NOT to do it where do you come up with it is approved by Bosch? Please provide some documentation from Bosch showing this. My claims have all come with the supporting documents so they are not really my claims they are Bosch's claims!

Steve,, talk with any Bosch engineer and he'll give you and education about their wide-band sensors....of course you really know deep down that the Bosch Wide band is best thing since Apple Pie, and that would be Grandma's Homemade apple pie - mind you.....anytime Bosch WideBand comes into play,, you get so paranoid..  Lighten up dude...Accept it!!!! There are other alternatives that work as well as TTS.  Quit downplaying others and accept the world of competition...  This forum is about members discussing their experiences, AND not having a select few vendors trying to cram down our throat their very own products...  If someone likes TTS, god bless him, if some else likes DDT or RP, god bless him too... As much as you have bashed both RP and DTT you never once have heard a bashing word from Chris or Brian, both of which are members here...In fact they both have awesome products that match well to yours and you never once hear  them trying pursade or suggesting otherwise..  Those are two men I have a lot of respect for and I have used both of their products, which by the way are my choice that I'm very happy with... It's always been my life long observation, anytime vendors bash things to your extent, it sends a message they are afraid of the competition.  You'd be further ahead if you kept your opinion to your own product and stopped knocking your competition.  There a few people here that know here you are comming from and you can't hide from them...    And over here, we won't get kicked off disagreeing with you  

[HOGMIKE]

Some people get a little bit "fired up" over comments made about their "baby", just different personalities......you just gotta move on.
The OP comments and pics of his o2 sensor color and plug colors etc were of a concern to him, and I would ask the same questions.
Without getting into a debate over what aftermarket tuner is better, my question would be "why are my sensors a much darker (richer?) color than a stock sensor?
Why does it seem that the colors are not what we'd expect in a clean (proper) running engine?
Is this something to worry about?
 

[Steve Cole]

Steve,, talk with any Bosch engineer and he'll give you and education about their wide-band sensors....of course you really know deep down that the Bosch Wide band is best thing since Apple Pie, and that would be Grandma's Homemade apple pie - mind you.....anytime Bosch WideBand comes into play,, you get so paranoid..  Lighten up dude...Accept it!!!! There are other alternatives that work as well as TTS.  Quit downplaying others and accept the world of competition...  This forum is about members discussing their experiences, AND not having a select few vendors trying to cram down our throat their very own products...  If someone likes TTS, god bless him, if some else likes DDT or RP, god bless him too... As much as you have bashed both RP and DTT you never once have heard a bashing word from Chris or Brian, both of which are members here...In fact they both have awesome products that match well to yours and you never once hear  them trying pursade or suggesting otherwise..  Those are two men I have a lot of respect for and I have used both of their products, which by the way are my choice that I'm very happy with... It's always been my life long observation, anytime vendors bash things to your extent, it sends a message they are afraid of the competition.  You'd be further ahead if you kept your opinion to your own product and stopped knocking your competition.  There a few people here that know here you are comming from and you can't hide from them...    And over here, we won't get kicked off disagreeing with you  

I haven't said one thing about any product comparison so why are you getting so worked up. No vendor bashing is going on accept in your head! I pointed out the Bosch specifications for proper mounting and using of there sensor. I, as well as all auto manufactures follow what they recommend to get the sensors to work as BOSCH specifications call out for. I have not only spoken with Bosch engineers about the sensor but we are also a Bosch Motorsports distributor, so yes we know a thing or two about the sensor and its application. If you want the results to come out right you follow what the manufacture tells you to do otherwise you will not get the proper results. Why is it that seems to bother you so much I do not know. The sensor is a fine product and I have never said otherwise, what I have said is the misapplication/ misuse of the sensor does not allow it to work properly and that is what you cannot accept. I'm still waiting for your supporting documentation from Bosch on your claim that cutting the sensor wires is OK, as that goes completely against what is in there published documents and recommendations.

The OP post started as a problem, I simply point out the possible cause of it and why it happens, something I haven't seen you doing here.

[Midnight Rider]

There are a few ways to resolve this "issue", but first let me say that I have not seen any evidence of anyone bashing another product, only questioning their use of a second party product (Bosch) based on their understanding/expertise on the proper application of said product.  One could certainly read between the lines and come to a different conclusion, but unless I missed something, nobody said anything bad about another manufacturer's product, directly.  That would be, at best, unwise.

So...1) Somebody could produce documentation that proves that Bosch DOES approve of different methodology to properly calibrate their sensors...after all, Bosch does not have a dog in the "tuner" hunt, they just provide a component, properly calibrated from the factory, with recommendations on what NOT to do, based on what I'm reading.  If someone has found an equally viable way of proper calibration, I can't imagine them having an issue with it being done that way, if it in fact works.  Generally speaking, there is usually more than one way to skin a given cat.  2) Somebody could produce documentation from Bosch that says NO other way of calibration is viable, or as accurate, as their methods.  3) Everybody could STFU and get back to the problem at hand, which is the fact that the OP sensors are obviously not optimally placed in the exhaust flow, at least on one pipe.  I'm no tuning Wizard by any stretch of the imagination, but I DO know a little something about proper placement of sensing devices and their importance in the proper operation of whatever logic device they feed data to.  Ideally, the sensor will be placed in a straight run of pipe, midstream.  It CAN make a difference if it is sensing on the inside or outside of a curve, because the flow is likely to be different in those locations.  Insertion depth also makes a big difference.  Both situations are happening in this particular application.  So, whatever can be done to address those two things is what needs to happen, as best as they can be addressed, given the constraints of the application (cramped space on a motorcycle).