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[Diese1nut]

Ok I bought this bike new and always loved it until now. This bike has always ran perfect and been very quiet as far as motor noise. Two years ago I put almost 15k on it trouble free. Last July at 28k miles I noticed some chain noise from the cam area so knew it was time for cam tensioners. Did all the research through this site and went to the dealer were I knew the service writer and told him what I wanted. The tensioners were ready to be done but not in pieces.
Here is what went into the bike: 25284-08 SE hydraulic cam plate with high flow oil pump, Zippers 4139257 cams 575 lift, all new bearings, 18404-08 SE tapered push rods, 18538-99c roller tappets, 17045-99d cam service kit, and another dyno tune. $2,000 and I'm on my way. Also upon purchase of the bike new I put Screamin Eagle mufflers, Race Tuner and High flow air cleaner on it.
 Well I immediately notice excessive lifter noise and lower oil pressure at idle. Idle is under 10 psi when hot and 32 down the road. Dealer tells me more noise is normal with the cams. I ride it here and there but I can't take it. I do more research and take it back. They find the rockers hitting the rocker box covers {make clearances} re-adjust lifters, and tell me oil pressure is in spec. Another $180.
The lifter noise is still outrageous and oil pressure less then impressive. It is so bad I have only put 2k on the bike since the install last July. The noise is at it's worst at idle but doesn't really improve on the road. The noise over powers the exhaust.
I can watch the pressure because I turned this Road King into a Road Glide a few years ago. I loved the bike but wanted a fairing, radio, gauges, and it is a one of a kind look.

Zippers claim is that this is the perfect set of cams for this bike, quiet smooth torque.
Yes the torque is much better but the noise is not worth it.
Funds are a little tighter this year so what ever it takes I plan on doing the work myself. I haven't been inside this bike but did a ground up rebuild and customize my old Shovel Head many moons ago so I feel fairly confident I can do the job but don't know what the problem is.
Zippers has offered to bench test the cam plate if I send it to them.
I am fairly sure the oil pressure is related but clearly the Dealer thinks it's ok. So I don't expect they will stand by there pump and plate. From what I have read I really expected much higher oil pressure at idle and around 40 down the road. Also on the work order there is no charge for 25285-08 the spacer kit. Is it possible they didn't need one and or how is it going to be related or affect the cams and such.
Like all of us I have a ton of money into this bike and it is my pride and joy. I take such care of it I trailer it down the dirt road I live on and ride from there.
I could really use some help on this before i start taking things apart. Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Doc 1]

Did they install a set of SE lifters when the build was done?

[Diese1nut]

They used 18538-99C and I don't believe they are the Screamin Eagle ones.

[49445CVO]

Interesting... Please keep us informed.   

[efrbc1]

My '05 build is very similar to yours except I went with S&S gear drive (Zippers 575 cams) and Feuling Oil pump.  Yes there is a bit more cam noise but nothing I find troubling.  No clearance issues and oil pressure is very good.  Not really any noisier than anything else I have ridden so I'm not sure what to suggest.  I have the same lifters, push rods, exhaust, A/C, and tuner as you.  The only (and cheapest) thing I can think of right off the bat is to check your push rod adjustment.  There is enough "play" to set them a bit tighter than recommended to see if that quiets it down a bit.  By tighter I mean about 1/2 to 1 turn.  Got my gear drive set and Feuling pump through Rebecca at Tri-County - at least the 20% off will help.

Chris

[Diese1nut]

Thanks for the input.
Zippers does want the lifters adjusted fairly tight. Their directions are to bottom the lifter out and come back 3 1/2 flats, but that's on a 1" 32 thread push rod and the HD ones are 1" 24. Not a big deal to figure out but I am sure the dealer used their standard adjustment which is about the middle of the lifter travel. So yes I will try that first.
I still have oil pressure concerns. I am wondering if I should get the Zippers shim or Baisly Spring.
Another major concern is the spacer kit. Did they use one and not charge me or maybe they didn't and that's part of the problem.

[hogasm]

Spring..Not with the 25284 pump/plate.

You have enough pressure

That cam is naturally noisy

[johnsachs]

Spring..Not with the 25284 pump/plate.

You have enough pressure

That cam is naturally noisy

      
I agree

[porthole]

Same set up and agree with the above two. Although my cam is noisy between 2-3K RPM's

Another major concern is the spacer kit. Did they use one and not charge me or maybe they didn't and that's part of the problem.

Good possibility that the tech had plenty of spacers in his toolbox already. You get 6 in the kit and use one. Do enough of these plates and you end up with plenty of spacers.

And if he didn't use it, I don't think the bike would last much more then out the door of the shop.

[Diese1nut]

Ok does anyone think I should send the cam plate to Zippers to be tested or am I wasting efforts there.
Also why does Zippers claim this is suppose to be so quiet if the replies here are that they are known to be noisy?

[grc]

Thanks for the input.
Zippers does want the lifters adjusted fairly tight. Their directions are to bottom the lifter out and come back 3 1/2 flats, but that's on a 1" 32 thread push rod and the HD ones are 1" 24. Not a big deal to figure out but I am sure the dealer used their standard adjustment which is about the middle of the lifter travel. So yes I will try that first.
I still have oil pressure concerns. I am wondering if I should get the Zippers shim or Baisly Spring.
Another major concern is the spacer kit. Did they use one and not charge me or maybe they didn't and that's part of the problem.

The cam is noisier than the stock cam; that is pretty much the way it is.  If you think the Redshift 575 is noisy, try a Wood cam.  However, there is no way any of us on this site can tell you over the internet if yours is noisier than usual.  For that, you need to see if you can find some other folk's in your area running that cam and then compare their bikes to yours.  As for the pushrod adjustment, the Harley recommended (and pretty much standard) method is to center the lifter piston in it's travel.  With SE pushrods that would be 2.5 turns from zero lash (.104").  Wood recommends .120"-.130" with their cams; that would be about 3.0 turns from zero lash.  I can't see any sense in cranking them down much more than that.  After all, they are supposed to be hydraulic, not solid.  

As for oil pressure, I have no idea who gave you the idea that you would be running 40 psi oil pressure with the Harley plate and pump.  Normal oil pressure is 30-36 psi at 2000 rpm and most tend to run around 32 psi at that speed.  Running more pressure than what the engine was designed for isn't going to do anything for you, it isn't one of those "if a little bit is good, a whole lot is better" situations.  And before I would get too worried about oil pressure, I'd make sure I tapped in a real certified mechanics pressure gauge and not just rely on that dash gauge from Harley.  It sure would be a shame to spend a bunch of money on a problem that didn't really exist.

Many people since 2007 have mentioned relatively low oil pressure readings at idle.  I noticed on my 2005 that my hot idle pressure was 10-12 psi on the original pump and plate, but when I switched to the 2007 hydraulic tensioner plate and higher output pump my hot idle pressure dropped to 8-10 psi on the same gauge.  Besides the fact that the hydraulic tensioner system bleeds a tiny bit of pressure compared to the old system, I think what you will find is that the bypass doesn't seal very well, allowing some oil to bypass even at hot idle when it really shouldn't.  If that slightly lower idle pressure bothers you, I'd suggest working on the bypass valve.  If the valve and seat are machined correctly, you don't need stiffer springs or shims to get the idle pressure above 10 psi.  I haven't bothered with mine, 8-10 psi is fine.  Don't forget, the Shovels and even Evo's often idled at close to zero psi.  

btw, the spacers are an "as required" part.  Many/most shops don't force people to buy the entire kit, since many jobs don't require a different spacer and you only need one.  The spacers have nothing to do with oil pressure or lifter noise.  If your primary cam chain doesn't run perfectly true, then you need a spacer to align the cam sprocket and crank sprocket.


Jerry

[99fatboy]

A faster ramp cam will make more noise, one of my friends used an Andrews in his Ultra. The fast ramps of the cam was so noisy it drove him nuts. He changed it out to a slower ramp cam made by Crane and was much happier. As far as oil pressure it sounds like there is less restriction at the cam now and you will have lower oil pressure. But like you I'd be asking questions about proper install just to be sure. Forgot to say, Harleys are not known for pressure but for volume of oil moved. Take your oil fill cap off and look for movement it should be easily seen.

[99fatboy]

It is possible for the push rods to touch their covers. Higher then stock lift cams cause this. Ask if the SE push rods the dealer used could be contributing to some of your noise. Rivera taperlite adjustable push rods are made to allow proper clearance when using high lift cams.

[Unbalanced]

Smith Brothers or S&S would be my choice.   Most of the standard SE Adjustables hit at the top of the tubes and they usually need to be chamfered.  The tapered SE do a better job, but some still rub a little bit and have a bit more flex in them compared to some of the others available on the market.  I have also had the locknut on the SE's crack in half .   You can look at the tops of the Pushrods and you will see the scuff marks on them.  

FWIW the 575's are on the noisey side as are all the fast ramp cams its the nature of the beast.  

If I were betting on noise, I would be looking at a lifter or spring pressures and valves or piston slap depending on the noise.  The other question I would have is when they did all this work did your rockerboxes possibly move or are they clearanced enough?   If you take the the top of the rocker boxes off and put a zip tie around the springs do they hit?  .060 clearance is what I would look for around them.   Its and easy check compared to some of the other items.   Reset the SE Pushrods to 3 turns (18 flats) instead of 2 1/2 turns  (15 flats).  Does the noise go away or lessen? 

If you believe it is the lifters try S&S lifters over the 99c's or if you decide to reset your pushrods do it then.

Good luck chasing the noise.

after thought are you sure your flange bolts are tight on the header pipes and that the bridge piece that holds the horn to both cylinders is tight?  Both of these can create a noise that sounds like the top end.

[Diese1nut]

Update. Not good news. Please read previous WTF post for the whole story.  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=72579.0

Installed new rear crossover pipe that was cracked. Adjusted lifters very carefully. Took bike for test drive and it was quieter and much smoother. I went about 6 miles and was feeling very pleased and then disaster. I started to hear a very slight noise in the valve train area and by the time I leaned forward to listen, the motor started rapping loudly and just as I pulled in the clutch it locked up and quit.

With the help of some passing brothers and my wife taking me to get my trailer, we loaded it up and got it home.

I opened up the push rod covers first and found the two rear and the front intake to be spinning freely. The front exhaust seemed to be at to high of a lift and jammed into the head. I removed the push rods, tappet covers and lifters.
I disassembled all the exhaust again and removed the cam cover for inspection. When I went to loosen the top cam bolt it was finger tight and part way out. The bottom one was tight.  When I took the top sprocket bolt the rest of the way off the sprocket fell off into my hand. It doesn't seem to have enough spline sticking out. I removed both sprockets. The cam cove had a partially drilled hole in it from the head of the upper sprocket bolt.

Now the fun part. The cam plate and cams were stuck in the housing and would not budge. I finally got them out using a home made tool to be gentle. The upper cam bearing came out with the cams and is welded to the cam. It appears that the upper cam bolt loosened up and the cam worked it's way in too far and took out the bearing. The worst is yet to come. When the cam went into far it made contact with the crank flywheel.  The crank is all scored along with the end of the cam. The end of the cam is partially ground off. I am sure the pieces are in the case.

So I called the dealer that did the work and of course the service writer I used no longer works there. I talked to the service manager. I understand he needs to see the bike. He said if was their error they would fix it but in the same breath was coming up with all kinds of other scenarios that could have caused it. We will see. I plan to take it to them and see what they say. I also plan on getting opinions from two other dealers on the way as it's 2 hours away from my house.

I think the motor is junk. This could very easily end up in a court battle. I don't have time for this chit and the good weather is coming. Talk about depression.