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Author Topic: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In  (Read 24002 times)

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jdracing

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SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« on: July 23, 2006, 01:08:23 PM »

Ok, so I'm writing this more as a sanity check than anything--I'm trying to decide how much of what I think I'm experiencing with this change is real, as opposed to in my head.  

I drained the SYN3 out of my bike yesterday and replaced it with Mobil 1 V-Twin.  Also replaced the filter, although both oil and filter had been changed 1500 miles earlier at the first service.  My SEEG now has 2600 miles on it.  I went on a 100 mile ride last night between about 9:30 and midnight--the first time it was cool enough all day to ride, as it's been over 100 degrees in Northern California most of this week.  Here is what I think I observed:

Mechanical Noise:  Harley engines always have had what I can best describe as an "agricultural" type sound.  Without water jackets to muffle it, seems like you can hear most of the internal pieces doing their things, from the whirring of the cams to the individual valve train components.  One of the things I noticed when I got my SEEG was that the motor noise seemed even louder with the 103 than it had on my '91 Evo motor.  I recently replaced the stock short windshield with a 12" Memphis Shades one, and with my head now out of the windblast, the engine noise was much more noticeable at any speed.

With the Mobil 1, it is very much quieter.  The "individual piece" sound I described above is reduced to the point, both at idle and at highway speeds, that I don't feel like I'm listing to parts rubbing on each other--that's about the best way I can describe it.  Perhaps if I put the stock exhaust back on I'd hear more, but this motor is definitely quieter now.

Temperature: I installed the oil temperature gauge last month and have since noted that on 80-90 degree days at highway speeds the gauge tends to stay between 180 and 190.  In traffic, if I sit for a while it will creep up to about 220-230.  On hotter days in traffic it has hit 240.  

Last night, with the temperature between 85-90 at 11 p.m., it stayed right at 180 at highway speeds.  I'm sure being out of the sun had an impact, and I don't think the gauge is reading much different now than with SYN 3.  When I came into town and idled around for a bit, it crept up to 220 or so.  It did seem to take a bit longer to hit 180 in the first instance, though--longer warmup time?

Oil Pressure: The best way I can describe my impression here is that the gauge, while reading within the same ranges with M1 as SYN3, seems to be less sensitive to temperature and rpm changes.  When the bike was cold with SYN3, the pressure at idle was up at 20-30, and would eventually settle down to 10-12 as it got hot.  At highway speeds, it would hang at least above 32, and seemed like it would immediately move to 45 or so when I got it to 4500 rpm and higher.

Now, as soon as I start the bike, even cold, it seems to idle at about 16 and on the highway hangs right in the middle of the gauge (about 32) whether it's completely warmed up or not.  When I jump on it, it will slowly work its way up to 40+ (at 4500-5000 rpm), and then slowly settle back down to about 32 at 2800 rpm.  Small changes in engine speed don't seem to affect it much.  In town, with the bike thoroughly warm, it will idle right at the 16 mark, and as the oil temperature slowly comes up, pressure will drop to maybe 12 (just on the high side of the small mark, one below the 16).  Never went any lower than that, no matter how long I idled--it was still at least 85 degrees ambient when I was doing this last night.  In short, oil pressure just seems less sensitive to temperature and rpm (not completely independent, just less sensitive), but the operating range seems about the same as with SYN3.

Vibration: This is where I'm ready for y'all to tell me I'm nuts.  At highway speeds the quieter engine gives a sensation of less vibration, although it's hard to tell whether it's just that I'm listening to less noise so that it "feels smoother".  Of course, one of the advantages of the "A" engines is that they are less vibration-prone at highway speeds because of the rubber mounting.  

But around town with the engine thoroughly heat-soaked, it feels like a different bike.  The vibration/rocking I had gotten used to with the rubber mounted engine is greatly reduced, almost to the point of elimination.  I had to put my hand on the horn bell sitting at a stoplight because I thought I was seeing things--it wasn't rocking back and forth much, if at all--just a slight vibration.  I'm used to seeing (and feeling) it bounce around at idle.  Between the noise reduction and the vibration reduction, the engine "just feels like it is not working as hard" when sitting at idle--seems like it's easier for it to keep itself going.  Don't know how else to describe it.

I've worked on and around internal combustion engines my whole life.  Built 2 stroke 250 Grand Prix road race engines for the AMA 250 GP National series for 7 years, and won two national championships along the way.  We tried many different types of 2 stroke oils (sponsored by several manufacturers over the years), and each one had its own fingerprint--particularly in how it affected reading spark plugs and piston crowns--perhaps the most critical skill a 2 stroke mechanic needs to develop in order to get the bike jetted correctly.  So I feel like I'm really well aware of the impact different lubricants can make.  I've got to say though, I wouldn't have guessed I'd see, hear and feel such a difference in going from one synthetic oil to another.  

So please, tell me I must be imagining it.  I've half-way convinced myself most of this is in my head anyway.      
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 10:49:36 PM by jdracing8rbb »
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Jeff
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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2006, 01:20:53 PM »

Jeff, quite frankly part of it is very likely a bit of optimistic notice based on paying far greater attention to details after you really did notice some very real changes.  Feel and hear the first good changes, notice other things that also seem good, and then associate them ALL together.  Simple human nature.  Having said that; at oil change #1 my red bike got significantly and suddenly quieter too.  I dropped the Syn3 too.  As much difference as we both noticed losing it from the engine, I noticed even more change losing it from the gear box.
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jdracing

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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2006, 01:25:48 PM »

Thank you for the assessment, Don.  I don't disagree.  

I put Heavy Shockproof in the gearbox at the first service as well, and never looked back.  I sort of expected the effect of that change based on everything I had read.  The crankcase oil differences caught me off guard.
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Jeff
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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2006, 01:34:59 PM »

Quote
I put Heavy Shockproof in the gearbox at the first service as well, and never looked back.  


That what I use in the gear boxes or rear ends of just about everything I've got.  What did you use for the Primary?
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custardglide

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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2006, 01:50:25 PM »

 :o Jeez, you guys are scaring me to death, just read the SYN3 topic on the other thread and I wanna get that stuff outa my scoot, problem is I am coming over to sturgis picking my scoot up in Milwaukee next monday as its just cleared customs, does anyone know somewhere around there that will drain my NEW SYN3 off and put me some Mobil 1 V-TWIN in. What should I put in primary and tranny, just done 5 k and I hope its not too late [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif]
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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2006, 02:31:56 PM »

Quote
:o Jeez, you guys are scaring me to death, just read the SYN3 topic on the other thread and I wanna get that stuff outa my scoot, problem is I am coming over to sturgis picking my scoot up in Milwaukee next monday as its just cleared customs, does anyone know somewhere around there that will drain my NEW SYN3 off and put me some Mobil 1 V-TWIN in. What should I put in primary and tranny, just done 5 k and I hope its not too late [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif]
custardglide (love that name!),

Don't let us scare you to death - I don't think anyone here can state for a fact that SYN3 causes failures.  It is still head and shoulders above the H-D360 dino oil many used religiously for the past umpteen years.  Many of us just feel that one of the higher rated oils like Amsoil or Mobil 1 will give us a little extra protection on these air-cooled V-twins.  If you have fresh oil right now, it would be rather wasteful to dump it. However, if you really want to change over I personally suggest the following:
Engine  -  Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50  (Easier to find than Amsoil)
Primary -  Mobil 1, either V-Twin or MX4T 10w40
Trans  -  Redline Shockproof Heavy, or Belray GearSaver 80w140, or Mobil 1 75w140

These are all products I feel very comfortable recommending, both from test results and from personal experience.

Jerry
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 03:01:52 PM by grc »
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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 02:38:45 PM »

At my last service at the dealership I requested Shockproof in the tranny and the writer said "Sure", and circled it... i]Shockproof[/i] is already printed right on their service orders.  I'm gonna ask for Amsoil or M1 at the next crank change.  :)

Garz
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jdracing

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Re: SYN 3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2006, 02:47:37 PM »

Don, right now there's still SYN 3 in the primary, simply because I didn't have time to swap it yesterday.  I'll give M1 a shot at the next opportuinity--I may wait for the 5K service.

Cus, don't panic.  While I think M1VT may be a long term keeper for the crankcase and primary, I wouldn't lose sleep over it between service intervals.  Again, I don't know how much of this was in my head, and I too have been following the other thread on this subject closely.  While I don't doubt that dwgibson posted what he heard accurately, I'm with Ironhorse that we need to be really careful before condemning any product based on unsubstantiated rumor, which the internet allows to be repeated without regard to accuracy.

The only reason I did this change now rather than waiting for the 5000 mile service is that I did the first service on my wife's bike last Saturday and noted that the M1VT was noticeably quieter than the HD factory dino oil.  It got me curious about my own bike, so I did this yesterday, mostly as an experiment.  My observations are, of course, completely subjective.  There's lots of folks running SYN3 without problem, based on what I've read here.

 

« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 02:52:41 PM by jdracing8rbb »
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Jeff
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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 03:01:35 PM »

Hope you're right Jeff, although I suspect that there might be a little optomism there, 'cause I just made the switch to Mobil 1 V an hour ago [smiley=cherry.gif]. Moved it 20' around the garage and I thought the motor was quieter right off the bat. We'll see.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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jdracing

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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 03:04:40 PM »

Yeah, Screamin', I suspect optimism on my part too.  Please let us know what you find--I'm really interested in whether yours seems to have any less vibration at idle when it's good and warm.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2006, 03:05:30 PM by jdracing8rbb »
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Jeff
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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 04:18:17 PM »

Custard, et. al.; don't be too terribly worried.  I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Syn3 is terrible in and of itself.  It's just that there seem to be (considrably) better alternatives.  We did run with dino oils for a long long time.  Actually my take for practical usage is to consider Syn3 in the same vein as I did he dino (for purposes of service intervals).  

I have no doubt, however, that it will give at least some greater heat threshold than would a dino oil.  I honestly don't care for it and would choose not to use given about any other synthetic alternative.  But we have to remember what the gains from the synthetics really are.  They aren't (generally speaking) better protecting in normal use.  They offer us a longer service life (which many choose not to take advantage of anyway) and they offer us higher thresholds of protection against thermal and other types of failure.

I do have specific qualms about using Syn3 in the tranny but that's not because it's synthetic or dino or a "good" or "bad" synthetic product.  I just don't think a motor oil that gets that thin at temperature is the right product for the gear box.  If allowed to choose between "barely good enough" to meet marketing requirements on the one hand and "very good to the task" on the other I'll choose the latter every time.
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EAGLE1

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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2006, 09:34:42 PM »

the Mobil 1 V-Twin is 20w50, so whats the viscosity of the syn3, sounds like there's a big difference?  it make sense that the motors would run quieter if ther is. The syn3 is the MoCo's break in oil, right [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  I thought that because it was synthetic it must be good  ;D ;D   Oh well i'm just about ready for my 5k, sounds like a no brainer, thanks guys [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2006, 10:18:02 PM »

Quote
the Mobil 1 V-Twin is 20w50, so whats the viscosity of the syn3, sounds like there's a big difference?  it make sense that the motors would run quieter if ther is. The syn3 is the MoCo's break in oil, right [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  I thought that because it was synthetic it must be good  ;D ;D   Oh well i'm just about ready for my 5k, sounds like a no brainer, thanks guys [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Same vis...one's just a hell of a lot better than the other....better additives.

Yeah, that's the ticket....syn3 is break in oil...
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jfscheck

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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2006, 10:26:07 PM »

Engine  -  Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50  (Easier to find than Amsoil)
Primary -  Mobil 1, either V-Twin or MX4T 10w40
Trans  -  Redline Shockproof Heavy, or Belray GearSaver 80w140, or Mobil 1 75w14

Yep - that sounds like the forumla for me to follow!  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: SYN3 Out--Mobil 1 V-Twin In
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2006, 11:59:02 PM »

I run mobil 1 20w-50 in the crankcase, mx4t 10w-40 in the primary and mobil 1 75w-140 in the tranny. I have switched a few of my friends bikes to this combo and they have all noticed a difference for the better, especially in the way the bike shifts.
  Oddly enough I have never experienced a problem with "bearing skate".  ;)
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