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[Screamin_Beagle]

I know I'll get flamed by someone for this,  but it needs to be said......We (as Americans,  should have a good understanding of what the problem is that is drowning our economy, tearing at the very fiber of our society,  undermining the ability of our society to grow, in peace and in war).  The mid east has been in conflict for 2000+ years,  and will continue to be so.  I support our troops in every way I can,  and believe that they should be there.  I as an American am proud for what our support has done over in the big sand box,  and don't think we should leave any time soon.  But most Americans do not understand the real picture......let me see if I can shed some light:

Can a good Muslim be a good American?
 
   I sent that question to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20
   years.
 
   The following is his reply:
   Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon god  of
   Arabia.

   Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah
   except Islam (Quran, 2:256)
 
   Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of
   Islam and the Quran (Koran).
 
   Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he
   turns in prayer five times a day.
 
   Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make
   friends with Christians or Jews.
 
   Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual
   leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of
   America, the great Satan.
 
   Domestically - no. Because he is instructed to marry four women and
   beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).
 
   Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American
   Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible
   to be corrupt.
 
   Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not
   allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam
   cannot co-exist.
 
   Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.
 
   Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God,"
   the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to
   as  heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99
   excellent  names.

   Therefore after much study and deliberation.... perhaps we should be
   very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously
   cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans. Call it what you wish....
   it's still the truth.
 
   If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above
   statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more
   who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our
   future.
 
   Pass it on Fellow Americans. The religious war is bigger than we
   know or understand.


   _Beagle

[Screamin_Beagle]

That was the fastest move in the history of mankind.....were you watching me type it???

[naitram]

just happend to check as it got posted,

[DCFIREMANN]

Beagle why do think you will get flamed? You spoke the truth. It is a religious war that most americans don't understand. Most don't care either.

We live under a flase blanket of security. When I first got assigned to special ops at work we had a federal agent come in and talk to  us about the threat of terror. This was in 1997. He made a very bold statement to us. Gentlemen it is not a question of if it will happen. The only question is when and where. We were privledged to some of the targets that could be and in fact were hit on September 11th. I know now that when we opened our borders we let down our guard. Once in this country (illegals)it is almost impossible to keep track of all of the terrorist actions until it is too late.

Please do us all a favor. If we get a chance to vote on it. Please vote to better protect our borders and do something about the illegals. When I say do something I don't mean let them have a free ride either. Illegal is illegal. Sneak into another country and see what happens to you. I promise it won't be pretty.

Be Safe

THE DAWG  

[ultrafxr]

You are right on, Dawg.  Well said. [smiley=banana.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

Some very good points raised here on some extremely complex and philosophically diverse subjects.

The only point (well, one of them) I would take exception with is that our Constitution was founded on Individual Freedom and Choice...Christian doctrine/philosophy, if in fact practiced and embraced, is tolerant in it's basic premises, so in that sense you can say our Constitution is based generally on a Christian philosophy, but the founding fathers established no "state" religion for a reason.  Fanatical beliefs, no matter the name or cause, have no place here because by definition, they are NOT tolerant.  So all those, no matter what flavor of Religion they choose, who violate the basic premise of indivdual freedom and choice, are just as wrong, no matter whose name they use to justify their actions.

Should Saddam have been "removed"...yes.  Did we, or are we, doing it in the most effective manner?  I guess history will tell future generations that.  Do I support our troups...absolutely.  Do I think the "War on Terror" is winnable...absolutely not.  Can we be a little smarter in how we deal with those who would violate our freedoms and choices...certainly.  How far do "we" as a country want to go to control those who would do that...that is evolving. This last subject is a very slippery slope, so be careful what you wish for, and who you give the authority to.

And, short of building the equivalent of the Berlin Wall from Texas to California, and from Seattle to Maine, the influx of people into this country, legal or otherwise, will never be effectively stopped, unless there is no reason for them to come here.  How much money are you willing to cough up to stop it?

[Twolanerider]

Matt,
The.... well, I don't know what to call it; the list you copied above has been bouncing around the net in various forms for awhile now.  It's a diatribe.  It's also factually wrong in many places.  In places where it's not it attempts to confuse literal texts with more common teachings (You really wanna try that with the Christian bible?  How about smashing a few children's heads with stones or wacking someone for working on a Sunday?).

There is much to dislike about the radical nature that Islam has been subverted. Shia and Sunni (and Wahabi and others) fight among themselves as much as they fight with with everyone else.  So they're not even safe from themselves.  And that doesn't even address age old animosities like Arab versus Persian.

We do ourselves (without even considering any positive or negative effect on our enemies) a disservice by propogandizing like this.  I mean hell, not only does that tome get "their" facts wrong it gets ours.  The Constitution and the Declaration were not as they are ascribed above to be.  Most of the founding fathers were Deists.  They wrote of a small "g" God.  They were sons of the Enlightenment.  

Doubters need look no further than Thomas Jefferson.  His Memorial has around it's mantle the famous quote, " for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."   What didn't fit, however, was the full quote, "[The Clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes.  And they believe rightly for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."   Jefferson did not write religously secular founding documents for the nation he was to help lead.

Without regard to the specific errors and misrepresentations of our enemy (and there are many) we need only remember that casting ALL as an enemy will make ALL an enemy; whether they were to begin with or not.  We're much better served by perhaps listening to not an Arab or a Western scholar but a Chinese.  Sun Tzu "know your enemy and your yourself....."

[RJ749]

Regardless of idiology or our individual views of the attackers, the singular fact that binds us in the United States is that we were attacked and suffered a loss on our own soil.

We tend to forget about it in a concious way.

[CVOJOE]

[Special_Ed]

As I read through the posts above I wonder where the future will take us. Everyone has made interesting points, quotes from the past and observations. Attempting to find some kind of truth from the media coverage, as mentioned, is almost impossible. Trying to find understanding of the Middle East is also just out of reach of most, including myself. When children, some 6 years old, are given guns and from the time they can understand are told that killing is not a sin but a way to appease their God, how can we understand? I would venture to say that most of us regardless of our beliefs have the understanding that killing is wrong. Yet holy wars have reigned since religion has been in existence. There are extremists in every corner of the world but they do not speak for all. Where can it end?

I support our troops, I am an American first and foremost. I served in the Coast Guard from 92

[HUBBARD]

Regardless of idiology or our individual views of the attackers, the singular fact that binds us in the United States is that we were attacked and suffered a loss on our own soil.

We tend to forget about it in a concious way.

[RJ749]

There you go Hubb, it isn't an impossible mission but just like the Viet Nam FU, the politicians want to pull the strings.

It's a fine mess we're in now and only pressure on the politicians is going to resolve it one way or the other.  

At this point we certainly need to be "ALL" in or get the hell out IMHO.

[Twolanerider]

North replied, "To protect my Family."

[Midnight Rider]

Amen......

[grc]

Don,

Thank you!  That needed to be said, and you said it better than I could ever hope to.  It is not the Muslim faith that is our enemy, it is the sick individuals who pervert the teachings of the religion for their own warped purposes.

Jerry