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[bobsplus]

2011 RG CVO ultra, with thundermax and rinehardts, I had it set up for a year or so, went to daytona and tundermax was their, I let them upgrade my firmware on the thundermax, and also let them correct the pinging and decel popping, cost 40.00, when I got it back the  issues were gone but also had a decease in power.....was at sturgis and talked to Chris with cycle solutions who installed the tuner and pipes last year, he said that thundermax has redone the firmware and resolved some minor issues,  he took it reprogammed and put on dyno, 87 hp and 106 tq, why the big spread on the numbers? that tune cost 299.00 which included new air filter KN, and bottle of lucas octaine boost,  bike runs good and strong but is their more?? also the throttle respone is much smoother, that was one of thundermaxes fixes....

[Twolanerider]

It's not like the bottle of octane booster really did much for you.  But the idea of a tuner tuning a street bike and doing so with an octane booster in the tank is just asinine. 

It's one thing to push a tune to its limit at the hairy edge of normal every day riding parameters.  Intentionally skewing those environmentals to allow jacking up the tune for purposes of showing better numbers isn't just wrong; it's counterproductive to the rider. 

I'd rather have them get slimy with things like jacked up tire pressure or software than actually altering the bikes combustion parameters in a way that might allow advanced timing for purposes of the tune.  At least with those tricks I won't ping like a popcorn maker on a hot summer day.

[FLY-DOG]

If you live if Florida take your bike to Doc's Performance in Minneola (352-404-6999).  No Harley shop will or independent shop will do a better job at wringing the power out of your bike than Doc.

http://www.docsperformancetuning.com/About_Us.html
 
 
 

[bobsplus]

the octane boost was due to crap gas, 91 octane, and the higher altitude in sturgis....I was unable to find any 93 octane...

[tweeter13]

Just wondering what pipes and you put on.  Did you put on pipes with out cats?  This is a good sell for the tts and the full sac for me then.  the price alone for the thundermax and slipons will almost cover the complete stage one set up for me.

[cahdbiker]

bobsplus, I hope you have your issues corrected. I have the fulsac stage one map with 1.75 baffles and HD/K&N free flow air cleaner. No problems at all. Last month while in New Mexico and had to fill with 90 octane with 10% ethanol and still ran great with no pinging.( outside temp was around 104) When it was new and stock it pinged all the time unless I was using California gas. Regarding Octane boost products. I have read the small print on almost every brand around and they usually raise the octane by only one tenth of one percent. Not really worth the money. If you could get your hands on a tankfull of 100 octane then you would really notice the difference. I used to run it in my 95 Heritage when I had a high compression engine in it. Thank fully that engine is long gone and now I am running an S&S with 585 cams in the Heritage.CAHDBIKER

[grc]

the octane boost was due to crap gas, 91 octane, and the higher altitude in sturgis....I was unable to find any 93 octane...

The octane requirement per Harley is 91 R+M/2, not 93.  And octane booster products don't have any beneficial effect for high altitude.  Trust me, those products are a waste of money unless you get stuck somewhere where they only sell 86 octane fuel, and even then the amount it would take to "boost" that fuel to a true 91 octane would be ridiculous.

If you were experiencing issues at the higher altitudes it would be for other reasons besides octane.  As altitude increases the density of the air decreases.  Less oxygen results in less power, and if your engine management system doesn't adjust for that you wind up with an excessively rich mixture as well which further reduces power.  Octane requirements actually decrease at higher altitude, btw, since there is less air being compressed.  Many truly high altitude areas don't even sell 91 or higher octane fuel, since it isn't necessary.

Anyhow, your experience seems to reinforce my feelings about the T-Max and the folks selling it.  They sold you a system claiming all kinds of wonderful and automatic benefits.  The result was less than their ads imply, and then when you had them update their firmware and software and fix the pinging and popping issues you had, they charged you $40 for something that should have been totally free of charge.  And then you paid someone else another $299 to make it run better?  It seems not much has changed in the six years since I bought one and promptly returned it after it didn't do any of the things they claimed it would.

I'd suggest taking the advice of the others and take the bike to a good tuner in your area.  I imagine you will see better numbers at sea level and with a good tune, and a good tuner will also make sure you don't have to run higher than normal octane to avoid pinging. 


Jerry

[Ironhorse]

Over on Harley Tech Talk there are a couple of folks who know the T-Max better than Zippers. One of them goes by the handle "Mayor". He helped me with my old 01 and the T-max conversion kit. You may want to give them a try.

[Midnight Rider]

If you're happy with the way the bike runs, what's the problem?  The spread in your numbers is normal.  For example:  The Fullsac Stage I, which is their header pipe, 2" cores in the stock cans, stock air filter, and TTS Mastertune, produces typical numbers in the 92-96HP/108-112TQ range, depending on the Dyno, ambient air conditions, the tune, etc.  So proportionally, your numbers are fine.  While the K&N air filter is not a bad thing, because it will hold up better to repeated services over time than the stock, washable filter, it did nothing to increase your air flow...or not enough to make a difference.  The stock filter is a high flow filter, so unless it was dirty, you gained nothing in terms of increased performance of the motor.  The octane booster is a gimick...

You mention that you have Rineharts...slip on mufflers on the stock exhaust header?  If you still have the stock header pipe on the bike, you're still running with the Cat in the collector, and that is hurting your performance to some extent.

Tuning a bike for peak numbers just to impress the owner is not a "good" tune for everyday riding.  Driveability is more important, and that means smooth throttle response, no popping, no pinging, and the ability for the ECM to adapt to varying fuel quality and riding conditions.  If the base tune in the Thundermax is a good one, it should be able to adapt to a difference in fuel quality between 91 Octane and 93 Octane.  The Tmax is touted as being able to adapt to SMALL changes in motor changes...like changing the air flow through either an air cleaner or an exhaust swap.  More radical changes, like cams...it's iffy whether it will "learn" or not.  The Tmax, from what I've read here and elsewhere, is very much dependent on a GOOD basemap as a starting point.  That is also true for the stock Dephi ECM and a tuner such as TTS or the HD SE Pro Race Tuner...a good tune with either of those devices will allow the ECM to adapt to changes in the riding environment, fuel quality, etc.  This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, which is nothing...but the Tmax would be the last choice on my bike for a number of reasons, the main one being that I am not going to change the ECM that comes on the bike to another brand.  Modifying the stock ECM with a device like the TTS is a better solution...again IMO.

[32Lager]

2011 RG CVO ultra, with thundermax and rinehardts, I had it set up for a year or so, went to daytona and tundermax was their, I let them upgrade my firmware on the thundermax, and also let them correct the pinging and decel popping, cost 40.00, when I got it back the  issues were gone but also had a decease in power.....was at sturgis and talked to Chris with cycle solutions who installed the tuner and pipes last year, he said that thundermax has redone the firmware and resolved some minor issues,  he took it reprogammed and put on dyno, 87 hp and 106 tq, why the big spread on the numbers? that tune cost 299.00 which included new air filter KN, and bottle of lucas octaine boost,  bike runs good and strong but is their more?? also the throttle respone is much smoother, that was one of thundermaxes fixes....

I have a pinging issue with my bike too and it's caused by the junk fuel we have to buy. Bryan at Zepka Harley adjusted my TTS map by richening the fuel mixture and retarding the timing. I've lost fuel mileage from the richening and power from the timing change but it pings a lot less than it was before.

I'll have to disagree with the people saying that octane boost doesn't help. I proved that last week when the one gas station only had 87 octane available. They didn't sell booster there so I had to deal with a rough idle, sluggish starts at intersections and severe pinging on the hills until our next stop 50 miles later. I added some Lucas octane boost there and it was an almost immediate improvement.

[grc]

I have a pinging issue with my bike too and it's caused by the junk fuel we have to buy. Bryan at Zepka Harley adjusted my TTS map by richening the fuel mixture and retarding the timing. I've lost fuel mileage from the richening and power from the timing change but it pings a lot less than it was before.

I'll have to disagree with the people saying that octane boost doesn't help. I proved that last week when the one gas station only had 87 octane available. They didn't sell booster there so I had to deal with a rough idle, sluggish starts at intersections and severe pinging on the hills until our next stop 50 miles later. I added some Lucas octane boost there and it was an almost immediate improvement.

Once again you are confusing octane with other characteristics of the fuel.  Octane doesn't have even a tiny influence on a rough idle or sluggish starts from intersections.  It does have an affect on detonation (pinging), since that is basically the definition of octane ratings (antiknock).  Odds are the gasoline you bought was either heavily loaded with alcohol which will affect idle and driveability, or perhaps that place sells old stale fuel laced with water.  Wouldn't matter what octane the pump claimed. 

If you dump enough of one of the boost products into the tank, it will increase the octane rating of the fuel and thus can reduce or even eliminate detonation in some cases.  If you calculate how much you are paying per gallon for that stuff, you would be better off either looking for a better gas station or getting your bike tuned to run properly on the fuels commonly available where you ride.  Of the various "boost" products on the market, the Lucas stuff seems to provide the biggest "boost".  The product I'm talking about is not street legal for use in an emission controlled vehicle, and thus has more active ingredients than the stuff you find in all those gas station convenience stores next to the little energy boost bottles.  Try not to mix the two products up, the octane boost stuff is rather poisonous.

The point I and many others have tried to make is that a properly tuned vehicle does not need additives to run correctly.  Wasting a ton of money on little plastic bottles of snake oil will never be a better solution than just fixing the real problem in the first place.  I've heard of people who dump a bottle in the tank every time they fill up, regardless of the octane rating on the pump.  This is just more proof that people are gullible and advertising is king.


Jerry

[LovemyCVOgirl]

If you're happy with the way the bike runs, what's the problem?  The spread in your numbers is normal.  For example:  The Fullsac Stage I, which is their header pipe, 2" cores in the stock cans, stock air filter, and TTS Mastertune, produces typical numbers in the 92-96HP/108-112TQ range, depending on the Dyno, ambient air conditions, the tune, etc.  So proportionally, your numbers are fine.  While the K&N air filter is not a bad thing, because it will hold up better to repeated services over time than the stock, washable filter, it did nothing to increase your air flow...or not enough to make a difference.  The stock filter is a high flow filter, so unless it was dirty, you gained nothing in terms of increased performance of the motor.  The octane booster is a gimick...

You mention that you have Rineharts...slip on mufflers on the stock exhaust header?  If you still have the stock header pipe on the bike, you're still running with the Cat in the collector, and that is hurting your performance to some extent.

Tuning a bike for peak numbers just to impress the owner is not a "good" tune for everyday riding.  Driveability is more important, and that means smooth throttle response, no popping, no pinging, and the ability for the ECM to adapt to varying fuel quality and riding conditions.  If the base tune in the Thundermax is a good one, it should be able to adapt to a difference in fuel quality between 91 Octane and 93 Octane.  The Tmax is touted as being able to adapt to SMALL changes in motor changes...like changing the air flow through either an air cleaner or an exhaust swap.  More radical changes, like cams...it's iffy whether it will "learn" or not.  The Tmax, from what I've read here and elsewhere, is very much dependent on a GOOD basemap as a starting point.  That is also true for the stock Dephi ECM and a tuner such as TTS or the HD SE Pro Race Tuner...a good tune with either of those devices will allow the ECM to adapt to changes in the riding environment, fuel quality, etc.  This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth, which is nothing...but the Tmax would be the last choice on my bike for a number of reasons, the main one being that I am not going to change the ECM that comes on the bike to another brand.  Modifying the stock ECM with a device like the TTS is a better solution...again IMO.

Terry, I'm always a student of yours...Very impressed with your answer. 

[LovemyCVOgirl]

The octane requirement per Harley is 91 R+M/2, not 93.  And octane booster products don't have any beneficial effect for high altitude.  Trust me, those products are a waste of money unless you get stuck somewhere where they only sell 86 octane fuel, and even then the amount it would take to "boost" that fuel to a true 91 octane would be ridiculous.

If you were experiencing issues at the higher altitudes it would be for other reasons besides octane.  As altitude increases the density of the air decreases.  Less oxygen results in less power, and if your engine management system doesn't adjust for that you wind up with an excessively rich mixture as well which further reduces power.  Octane requirements actually decrease at higher altitude, btw, since there is less air being compressed.  Many truly high altitude areas don't even sell 91 or higher octane fuel, since it isn't necessary.

Anyhow, your experience seems to reinforce my feelings about the T-Max and the folks selling it.  They sold you a system claiming all kinds of wonderful and automatic benefits.  The result was less than their ads imply, and then when you had them update their firmware and software and fix the pinging and popping issues you had, they charged you $40 for something that should have been totally free of charge.  And then you paid someone else another $299 to make it run better?  It seems not much has changed in the six years since I bought one and promptly returned it after it didn't do any of the things they claimed it would.

I'd suggest taking the advice of the others and take the bike to a good tuner in your area.  I imagine you will see better numbers at sea level and with a good tune, and a good tuner will also make sure you don't have to run higher than normal octane to avoid pinging. 


Jerry

X2 on a good tune Jerry 

[Twolanerider]

the octane boost was due to crap gas, 91 octane, and the higher altitude in sturgis....I was unable to find any 93 octane...

You're still paying to tune the bike to an out-of-spec standard and to an environmental availability (the higher octane fuel) that is commonly not available in much of the country.  It's like paying extra for clothes that don't fit.  If you're tuner is making this recommendation he's doing a bad job.  If he's going along with you making this recommendation he's doing a bad job.

In fact.....  Unless the only thing you care about is the dyno sheet to show the buddies at the bar so the chest can be thumped and belches can be lorded over the great unwashed there is a good argument to be made for tuning the bike with 89 in the tank.  You can get it anywhere.  If tuned well for that octane you'll never have to deal with pinging.  You'll save a fair bit of change on fuel tank after tank after tank.  And, quite frankly, the dyno might notice a difference in how the bike runs but your ass (unless you let it lie to you) probably never will.

If the bike is a queen that's only for hole shots away from stop signs and showing off its dyno sheets than, by all means, go to the local airport's FBO.  Get some 104 AvGas.  Tune until it hurts.  And brag brag brag.

If the bike is a rider, however, the booster and all the rest is nonsense.  Tune it for how it'll be ridden and what you can easily find to put in it.  An octane booster does nothing for your idle.  It does nothing to make the bike "run" better on its own.  There is no more "energy" in a higher octane fuel.  Just a package to delay detonation.  That's all the difference.  So, maybe, you can advance timing a bit more.  Right up until the time everything is hotter or the fuel can't be found.  Then you've tuned yourself a pinging juke box that stuffing quarters in won't make better.

[Twolanerider]

 and then when you had them update their firmware and software and fix the pinging and popping issues you had, they charged you $40 for something that should have been totally free of charge. 

There's a lot I'll fault Zippers for Jerry.  Not sure that charge is one of them.

Anyone with the package can do firmware updates anytime they want (if an update is available).  They just have to be willing to use the software provided.  If they go to the vendor and use his time to accomplish this same task, however, the vendor should get to charge for his time.  Just because the end-user should be able to do it on his own doesn't mean the vendor obligated to do it for him if he can't or chooses not to.  I doubt they'd tell you the charge was for the firmware itself.  It's a labor charge for the time to do the task.