Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Trapperdog]

This may get merged with recient questions, but...I wanted to make a statment
I recently took my '07 with 70K miles to Metal Dragon (Jim's, hd-dood) for high oil consumpsion and horrific knocking. Initial bleed down test warranted a tear down and although jugs, pistons and heads have not been checked yet, the rods were found to be locking up on the crank (tightening). The cases have not been split at this time. I had resigned myself to paying for everything East of the crank and have ESP cover the rest. The ESP inspector was sent out to take pictures and for the first time for Jim, asked to have the side cover removed to take a pic of the ECU and see if it had a piggyback fuel controller. Two days later Jim received a call stating that the claim was denied due to the addition of a PCIII. Their explanation was that it was A; a modification to the engine and therefore nullified the warrantee and B; increased the HP and TQ which caused the failure. Jim's rebuttals only fell on def ears. I have not received my letter of denial yet however I have a lawyer reviewing the ESP contract to help me decide what, if any, avenue to take.
Aside from their obviously flawed logic, their visual inspection limits them to only piggy backed controllers and not others such as the SERT, which is biased. But as many of our 110's are failing and corporate coin purses tighten, a computer check for SERT's and the like may follow suit.
A call to Dyno Jet for reassurance only resulted in a referral to the "Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act"
I bring this experience to the forum not only for comments and suggestions, but as a heads up as well. I will update as any new information follows.

[sadunbar]

B; increased the HP and TQ which caused the failure.

Which is only an assumption on their part...  Who's to say the PCIII actually increased the HP and TQ?

Lackng Dyno work on their part, they have zero evidence PCIII changed anything.

[RedDevil]

Also, the Moss-Magnusson Warranty act states that it's incumbant upon the servicing people to prove that the modification is the cause of the failure, not you.  They were just using the PCIII as the scapegoat.  Now, I guess the other question would be, is service performed under an ESP protected by the Moss-Magnuson Warranty Act, because technically it's not a warranty but a service plan.

[grc]

First, a '07 is obviously well past the factory warranty period, so the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act does not apply.  The ESP is not a factory warranty, nor is it an extension of the factory warranty.  It is a service contract, and as such it does not fall under the protections in the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.  The contract in this case is the bible, so I'd suggest poring over the contract with a magnifier and a fine toothed comb to find all the gotcha's.  I'm sure there are plenty.

The ESP company (it's not Harley) has obviously been taking a screwing thanks to Harley's lousy quality and reliability, so I would guess they've started looking for ways to avoid paying claims.  One person posted not too long ago that an ESP rep refused a claim on his bike because he had a non-stock oil filter installed.  I would fight that one in court forever, but once you get into mods that can affect power output you might be treading on thin ice.  It all comes down to what the contract says.  They specifically state that trailer towing will void the contract for instance; I'd insist they show me in writing where the contract says a tuning device would do the same thing.

You may need to find someone much higher up the food chain at that ESP company to talk to, but if that doesn't help then I guess it comes down to a lawyer or just sucking it up and buying a new engine.

Good luck.

Jerry

[Wrongway]

That just totally SUCKS Roger. I sure hope you come out a winner in this fight.
 On another note:  YOU GOT 70K out of a 110
                          I GOT 20K from my latest 103
That's quality for you! Just turned 194K on my CIVIC and oil, filter, plugs so far!

[miker]

 

[mrmagloo]

Why wouldn't you take the few minutes to remove the PCIII and anything else that's easy to remove? That's just asking for trouble?

Hate to Monday quarterback here but you see this way too often. While for OEM warranties, the MMWA is great to some extent, BUT you still have to take them on and the legal costs get out of hand real quick. Harley is notorious in digging in their heels and fighting to the bitter end, so why provoke it?

Before you bring it in for drivetrain service, remove all add-on performance stuff that you easily can. The PCIII is at the top of the list because it's a 2 minute plug and play thing.

[Trapperdog]

 The contract in this case is the bible, so I'd suggest poring over the contract with a magnifier and a fine toothed comb to find all the gotcha's.  I'm sure there are plenty.

The ESP company (it's not Harley) has obviously been taking a screwing thanks to Harley's lousy quality and reliability, so I would guess they've started looking for ways to avoid paying claims.  It all comes down to what the contract says.  They specifically state that trailer towing will void the contract for instance; I'd insist they show me in writing where the contract says a tuning device would do the same thing.
You may need to find someone much higher up the food chain at that ESP company to talk to, but if that doesn't help then I guess it comes down to a lawyer or just sucking it up and buying a new engine.
Good luck.
Jerry

Jerry has hit the nail on the head. My lawyer initially stated that it's all in the wording of the contract. The contract does state that "any modifications to the power train" will void the contract and per their verbal statement, the PCIII IS a power train modification. Oddly enough, it goes on to include "the suspension ( including tire or wheel size) and/or an exhaust system not approved by Harley-Davidson. A fairly broad statement.
Either way, I will have to pay for the entire engine rebuild, and based on my lawyers findings, decide wheather or not to try for reimbursement in small claims court.

[Trapperdog]

Why wouldn't you take the few minutes to remove the PCIII and anything else that's easy to remove? That's just asking for trouble?

Hate to Monday quarterback here but you see this way too often. While for OEM warranties, the MMWA is great to some extent, BUT you still have to take them on and the legal costs get out of hand real quick. Harley is notorious in digging in their heels and fighting to the bitter end, so why provoke it?

Before you bring it in for drivetrain service, remove all add-on performance stuff that you easily can. The PCIII is at the top of the list because it's a 2 minute plug and play thing.

While that's true in hindsight, it's never been an issue at Jim's shop before and from what I have heard, a rarity otherwise. This is partially why I am posting this information, so that others can learn. I have had about 10 other claims with ESP on this bike, some engine and some drive train related, and have had zero problems with the Company so far. Unless they have targeted me due to numerous past claims, my assumption is that they will be beta testing denial on some of our claims due to the high failure rate of our 110's to avoid the high costs of repair/replacement.

[JCZ]

Why wouldn't you take the few minutes to remove the PCIII and anything else that's easy to remove? That's just asking for trouble?

Hate to Monday quarterback here but you see this way too often. While for OEM warranties, the MMWA is great to some extent, BUT you still have to take them on and the legal costs get out of hand real quick. Harley is notorious in digging in their heels and fighting to the bitter end, so why provoke it?

Before you bring it in for drivetrain service, remove all add-on performance stuff that you easily can. The PCIII is at the top of the list because it's a 2 minute plug and play thing.

It was never an issue with any of my bikes where an extended warranty was concerened.  Not years ago when I took it to a dealership and not with the five bikes that I've taken to Jim's.  And they all had extended warranty issues.....like Roger....a number of times over.

After reading this thread....I guess I do have some gratitude that I don't have to deal with any of this kind of chit going forward.  

Roger.....I fill for you.....Jim to (cuz it will have an impact on his business to some degree).  Go ahead and file the small claims suit.  They can't use an attorney in small claims in Calif. (they have to represent themselves) and they'll have to come to court there.  I'd think they'll fork it over at that point

[Twolanerider]

Go ahead and file the small claims suit.  They can't use an attorney in small claims in Calif. (they have to represent themselves) and they'll have to come to court there.  I'd think they'll fork it over at that point

California, Michigan and Nebraska are the states with provision against being represented by counsel in Small Claims Court.  Except.... if you're filing against a company the company may have an attorney that is its employee represent them so long as that person's job is not solely representing them in small claims court.

[Phantom309]

This is bs & also what scares me about paying for an xtended warranty if I even decide to keep mine til then. It's so depressing to read nothing but problems with HDs anymore. That new GTL I've been pondering is looking better by the day. Good luck & I hope u find a way to make them cover your motor.

 

[Twolanerider]

In Mother Harley's twisted logic they can probably do some math and conjure a way that declining quality (and it's attendant high costs passed to the ESP) is a good thing.  Can easily imagine internal debates wherein a case is made that if people stop buying ES contracts they'll buy new bikes more often.

[Panhead_Jimmy]

The ESP inspector was sent out to take pictures...

This isn't the same guy that worked the Canadian border crossing, is it? 

Hope this gets resolved in your favor, my friend!

[hd-dude]

We have done countless ESP claims here with many different bikes and with different ESP companies. Most all claims have been made with exhaust and AC modifications. The tuner or download (of some sort) is a requirement when making intake and exhaust changes to the bikes. Over the years I am asked the question by the ESP reps and or the field inspector about modifications. In all instances, up until now, there has not been any issue with the basic intake, exhaust, and tuner mods. In fact the inspector in this case told me "they don't care" about these types of mods. The inspector is a third party that is contracted by the ESP company to come and look at the bike and the failures. His word doesn't mean chit about the mods as he only reports what he sees. What I found interesting about this inspection was that the inspector had a list of items that he needed to verify. Tire sizes, pictures of under the seat and side covers, pictures of exhaust and AC kit ect. This is the first time they have asked for this kind of detail. My feeling is the ESP is eating a bunch repairs due to HD's crappy product and they are now going to become more and more stringent when it comes to mods.