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[HDGearHead]

I recently rebuilt my 110 motor following a catastrophic lifter failure.  I have a TTS for the bike but ended up buying a SEPST for it since the dealership builder/tuner wasn't comfortable with the TTS.  Following the break-in and final tune, the bike made 116HP and 122TQ SAE with a nice curve.

I'm swapping out my Fullsac C pipe and 2" muffler cores for the new Fullsac D pipe and 2.25" muffler cores.  Following this, the bike will be re-tuned.

It currently still has the stock 50mm throttlebody and 4.35 injectors.  I've been advised by multiple people that installing a 58mm throttle body will probably negatively impact the low end and throttle responsiveness and to stick with the 50mm throttlebody.

I'm concerned that I may be at or exceeding the limit of the stock 4.35 injectors. The SE catalog has a statement that implies that the injectors should be upgraded on engines making more than 100 HP which mine definitely does.

Both the tuner and TR (T-Man) said that the stock injectors may be adequate for my build. TR said that my tuner should be able to tell during the tune whether or not larger injectors would be required.  When I followed up with the tuner after the tune, he said he used V-Tune and didn't see an issue, however he also didn't seem to know how to determine if larger injectors were needed in the SESPT.  He didn't save the data that was captured during the tune to review afterwords.

The tuner set the AFR to 14:1 and set the cubic inches to 145 ci and decreased the injector size from 4.35 to 4.3 in the SEPST to be able to adjust the VE tables out of the red.  This doesn't make sense to me, however the bike runs strong without hesitation and doesn't ping.

I'd like to take the bike to Docs, but its a 1200 mile trip and I wouldn't have the time while there to buy and install larger injectors if Doc determined that they were required.  I also, don't want to waste money on larger injectors if they aren't needed.

1. What are the opinions of the experts here?  

2. Is it possible to install 4.9 g/s injectors in the 50mm TB and what is the PN for them?

3. When my local dealer re-tunes it after installing the new pipe, what do I need them to capture /look at in the SEPST to determine is larger injectors are required?

4. Can anyone explain in simple terms why the tuner would need to increase the cubic inches from 110 to 145 in the SEPST to tune the VE tables out of the red?


My 2010 FLHTCUSE5 110 Build
• T-Man CVO Street Performer Kit

• T-Man 555 CAM
• Forged Wisco 10.5:1 .005 over Pistons
• CVO Street Performer Heads (decked, ported, 2.130 intake and 1.630 exhaust valve sets, Beehive springs)
• Cometic .040 Head Gaskets
• 10.7:1 Static Compression

• Stock 50mm throttle body with 4.35 injectors
• DarkHorse Trued, Plugged, welded and Balanced Flywheel with H-Beam rods.
• Timken Bearing
• SE Hardened Lefty Bearing in Right Case Half
• SE High Performance Inner Cam Bearings
• S&S Tappet Set With HL2T
• SE Premium Tapered Quick-Install Adjustable Pushrods
• SE High Volume Oil pump Assembly with Baisly LMR-002 15% Oil Pressure Spring
• Oil Bud Oil Cooler with Chrome Adapter Plate
• Fullsac X-Pipe C with 2" CVO Muffler Cores (new D pipe and 2.25" cores in the box awaiting installation)

[Heatwave]

I would say that based on the build, the engine could benefit from the 58mm TB and 5.3g/s injectors. My guess is that your hp will increase to the low 120's and Tq will increase into the upper 120's with a solid tune.

[Steve Cole]

3.91 are good for about 50 Hp per injector
4.35 are good for about 55 Hp per injector
4.9 are good for about 62 Hp per injector
5.32 are good for about 67 Hp per injector
6.2 are good for about 79 Hp per injector
6.7 are good for about 85 Hp per injector

Pick your poison for what you have now and what you plan to do in the future if you can.

[HDGearHead]

Based on the information that Steve supplied, it appears that I'm already pushing my stock 4.35 injectors to their limit and should install larger injectors.

I also received a PM from another member that has done a couple of 125HP/TQ 110 builds and a 138HP/TQ 120 build.  In his builds, he found that the HPI 55mm TB with HPI 6.2 injectors produced the best combo of performance and rideability for him.  HPI makes quality products however based on Steve's info, the 6.2 injectors may be to big for my build.

If I install the SE 58mm TB w/5.3 injectors as Heatwave suggested or the HPI 55MM TB, will I also need to change out the backing plate for my Air Cleaner?  I'm currently running the SE Ventilator Performance AC Kit 29915-09.  If I need to replace it, is there a replacement that will maintain the same looks as this one?

I don't drag race and I spend most of my time cruising between 2K to 3.5K RPM and run it up to 4 to 5k during accelerations so I don't want to trade performance in those areas for big numbers on the high end.  I also want to try and maintain reasonable gas mileage.

Regarding my current tune:
Can anyone explain why the tuner would have increased the cubes from 110 to 145 in the SEPST?  He said that he needed to do this to enable him to adjust the VE tables cells out of the Red.  What I don't understand is why cells would not allow him to adjusted out of the red using the actual cubes of my motor. 

Should I stick with the SEPST or find another tuner and re-tune using my TTS.  Is there any real advantage of using one over the other or is it just a matter of using the device that the tuner is comfortable with?  Is it possible to convert a SEPST map to a TTS map or visa versa (by possibly transferring the table info from one to the other)?

[Heatwave]

The Ventilator is a good flowing AC. You'll need the backing plate that fits the 58TB if you go in that direction.

The fact that he increased the displacement in the tune is actually a good thing. It suggests you have strong flow in the heads and valves. I'm somewhat surprised he had to go so high. I would have expected an increase to 120 or 125. But if that's what he needed I think it suggests you could benefit from larger injectors and TB. The reason he's raising the displacement is to get more fuel flowing at higher rpms. Same reason he lowered the setting for he size of the actual injectors. The computer calculates the length of time the injector is "on". By telling the computer it has slightly smaller injectors it will keep them "on" longer in an attempt to deliver more fuel. This trick only works in small increments but it also suggests you could benefit from larger injectors.

[Mr. Warlock]

Heatwave is correct, by changing the cubes higher the program automatically compensates and adds the fuel in attempt to match what would be needed for that size motor. But, there is no way the injectors would be able to add enough for the cubes he entered. Basically he could have entered something like 120 and got all the injectors were able to provide. If he would have set the AFR to 12.8 (where your build should be for the most performance imo) it would have clearely showed up that your injectors were maxed. IMO this build should be about 120 squared.

[Steve Cole]

I always get in trouble for this but I will continue to say it. A properly setup calibration should not need the displacement set to something larger than it needs to be nor should the injector size be reduced just to get the results your looking for. Typically it indicates that something else is going on that should be  sorted out. The ECM is smart enough to understand parts have limits and fooling the ECM to push parts beyond there limits is not good for long term. Fine and sort or fix the issues and get it back to operating where it should be. Injectors are designed to run at a max duty cycle for continuous operation at 80%, sure they work beyond that but durability starts to come down very rapidly above that.

Based on what you are going to use YOUR combination for I would go with the 5.3 injectors as long as you are not going to up the power in the future. 6.2 would be my choice but I tend to run the motor harder than what you state your going to be doing. It's a give an dtake like everything else is.

[North Georgia Hawg]

I always get in trouble for this but I will continue to say it. A properly setup calibration should not need the displacement set to something larger than it needs to be nor should the injector size be reduced just to get the results your looking for. Typically it indicates that something else is going on that should be  sorted out. The ECM is smart enough to understand parts have limits and fooling the ECM to push parts beyond there limits is not good for long term. Fine and sort or fix the issues and get it back to operating where it should be. Injectors are designed to run at a max duty cycle for continuous operation at 80%, sure they work beyond that but durability starts to come down very rapidly above that.

Based on what you are going to use YOUR combination for I would go with the 5.3 injectors as long as you are not going to up the power in the future. 6.2 would be my choice but I tend to run the motor harder than what you state your going to be doing. It's a give an dtake like everything else is.

Steve - is there any harm that could be done when installing larger injectors than are really needed (and setting the actual injector size properly in the cal of course)?

I suspect from your numbers that I may need larger injectors than my current stock ones, and if I get larger ones I would like to get really big ones to accommodate any future mods.

I would also expect to have to do some more VTune runs to get the VEs dialed in again if I change the injectors. We currently have the CI set to 125 for my 110" engine, and I'd like to get that down closer to the actual CI with larger injectors.

[Steve Cole]

The more you have the harder it gets at idle to control, so yes you can go to big and the result is bad idle speed control of the fuel system. That said I THINK 6.2 would be fine for you but I have not yet tried it. I do run 6.7 g/s in 120R and know that I am still OK at idle but there is not much room at all with them. The mid range and higher RPM is great with them so that's why I've done it.

[HDGearHead]

Thank you for explaining this.  My tuner incrementally raised the cubes and claims he needed to set it to 145 (or close to it) and reduce the injector size by .05 to set the VE table.  Even after doing this he had 3 cells at the high RPM/MAP that he couldn't adjust out of the red (In an area that I wouldn't be spending any significant time).

At least I understand what he did now and why.  Based on my new found understanding, I agree with Steve, that doing this masks another issue that if properly sorted out would eliminate the need to do this in the first place. 

Steve - Regarding the numbers that you listed (5.32 are good for about 67 Hp per injector), are these calculated at 100% or 80%?

If these numbers are at 80%, I will probably go with the 5.3g/s injectors and either an HPI TB (I've got to call them to discuss) or the SE 58mm TB.   I'm pulling 116HP/122TQ now am thinking that with the new pipes, muffler cores, larger injectors and TB that I will end up with the HP somewhere between 120-125.

However, if these numbers are at 100%, then I may need to go bigger still (6.2)

I have a credit at the dealer that built my engine and tuned the bike so I'll let them have another go at it with the new Fullsac D pipe and larger 2.25" cores once I figure this out.  This time I'll look over their shoulder to make sure that the injectors duty cycle is under 80% /16ms. 

I'm not going to go any bigger with this build in the future so I want to avoid any issues that could result from having too large of injector.

Once I confirm that I have the right sized injectors, I'm schedule an appointment with Doc. It will make for a nice road trip once it warms up a little.

Couple more question for the experts here...

1. What is a good target AFR that balances performance with economy?  My tuner set it to 14.1 during the last tune.  I was thinking it should be a little richer than that (low to mid thirteens).

2. Should I stick with the SEPST or switch back to the TTS?  Originally, my tuner wasn't comfortable with using the TTS so he pushed me to get the SEPST (I managed to get one at a very good price).  After I purchased this, he learned that the TTS is essentially the old Harley Race Tuner.  He actually had a lot of experience tuning with the Race Tuner and now feels that he would have been comfortable tuning with the TTS if the dealer would allow it.  Since I now have both for the bike, if theres an advantage to the TTS over the SEPST, I can request that they accomplish the retune using the the TTS (not sure if they will but asking is free). 

Is is possible to convert maps from a TTS to SEPST and visa versa?  I would think that it would be possible to open a map in each and then manually transfer all of the settings and values from one to the other.  Is my thinking way off base on this?  It would be nice to be able to switch from one to the other without having to start from scratch needing a new dyno tune.

[Heatwave]

The duty cycle on the injectors will be at 80% once they are set in the tuning software to their actual size (ie. if they are actually 5.3g/s then they are set to 5.3g/s in the tuning software).

Given your level of experience with tuning, my recommendation is to use whichever of the 2 tuners your shop is most comfortable with. You should note that TTS locks your ECM from future use by another tuner. SEPST does not.

Let your tuner identify the best AFR. It a balance of getting the best power while maintaining reasonable fuel economy when cruising. Richer at high rpms, leaner in the cruise range.

Good luck.

[Steve Cole]

The numbers listed are what those injectors would typically do at 80 %.

[HDGearHead]

The numbers listed are what those injectors would typically do at 80 %.

Steve - Thank you for clearing that up for me.  You have been most helpful.  I just found out that you are the inventor of the SERT/TTS.  Excellent product. 

My TTS came with my bike (I'm the second owner). The original owner purchased it from Fullsac as part of their CVO Stage II kit.  I wish Harley hadn't decided to go their own way. 

My local dealer pushed hard for me to buy the SEPST.  I had wanted to stay with the TTS, however since they were going to do the complete rebuild and ESP was involved and they were willing to work with me in other ways, I ended up with little choice in the matter and had to go with the SEPST.

During the 2.5 month build after I had already purchased the SEPST and had opened the sealed package (at least I got it at a good price), I brought the TTS and my laptop in to show the mechanic.  When he saw it, he commented that its an updated version of the SE Race Tuner that Harley use to use that he was very familiar with.  Of course thats when he said that he would be comfortable tuning with it but that there may be an issue getting permission to load the software for it on the dealer computer.  Since I had already opened the sealed package for the SEPST, I decided to go ahead and use it.

On my first tune, the tuner spent a couple of hours on the dyno heat cycling it and creating a rich tune that was safe to ride up to 3K rpm.  I then took the bike on several long rides varying the load and RPM never exceeding 3K rpm to break it in (the bike ran like crap - very rich).  After 300 or so miles, I returned the bike to the dealer to accomplish the final tune.   FYI- during the break-in we ran Shell Rotella T Triple Protection oil in the motor as recommend by T-Man (I can't recall if it was 50w-30 or just 30W without digging out the T-Man paperwork).  For the final tune, he spent another 4-5 hours on the dyno dialing it in.

When I install the new injectors, TB and pipes, I assume that he may start over using a new SEPST base map thats a better fit (or if I can convince them to use the TTS and new TTS base map).  I'm thinking that he'll need another 4 hours on the dyno to re-tune the new base map.  My rear tire has enough meat for 1 more tune so I'll need to replace it immediately after.

While my builder/tuner is a excellent mechanic, I'm not fully confident in his tuning abilities.  Because of this, onces hes re-tuned it and I am confident that my injectors are the right size, I intend to make an appointment with Doc.  When I spoke with Doc, he indicated that he doesn't stock injectors and is not setup to swap out parts during a tuning session. As such I need to make sure that the parts are right when I arrive.

Since Doc is a TTS master, I plan to have him tune my bike using it.  However, I'd like for him to start the tuning session using the re-tuned map from my local tuner instead of starting from scratch.  Docs tune session will indicate just how good my local tuner is or not.  If he's fairly good, Doc may not need to spend as much time on the Dyno saving me money in time and tires.

Unfortunately, if my local guy is forced to use the SEPST, Doc will need to start from scratch with a new TTS base map (I'm sure that he has some that are pretty close that he can choose from).

Thats why I asked the question regarding if it is possible to convert a map for one to the other.  I'll understand if you don't or can't respond to the following and please understand that I mean no offense when asking and that If I'm way off, you can feel free to knock me up side the head.

In my simple mind, the ecm and its firmware code is common to both the TTS and SEPST/SEST.  I am wondering if there is a significant difference in the data that is written to the ECM by either device (I know that the TTS writes to some areas that other tuners can't access (including the SEPST) and becasue of this the TTS locks the ECM to prevent other devices from screwing up the ECM (a good thing).  This indicates that there is at least some difference in the data being written. 

When I open maps in both the TTS and SEPST applications side by side, it appears that I could manually transfer settings and table information from one to the other.  I am wondersing if it may be possible transfer a SEPST/SEST map to the TTS (and possibly visa versa) eliminating the need to re-tune on the Dyno to switch from one device to the other.

It would be nice (if possible) in a future build of MasterTune, to have an import feature to allow a user to automatic import their existing SEPST/SEST maps into MasterTune.  It would make it easier for owners of the SEPST/SEST to switch to the TTS.  I doubt that Harley would ever enable conversions in the other direction so that change in consumer direction would only be one way. 

I guess that I'm just wishing for a way to reduce the amount of time (and money) that I need to spend on the dyno and the resulting tire wear. 

[North Georgia Hawg]

The more you have the harder it gets at idle to control, so yes you can go to big and the result is bad idle speed control of the fuel system. That said I THINK 6.2 would be fine for you but I have not yet tried it. I do run 6.7 g/s in 120R and know that I am still OK at idle but there is not much room at all with them. The mid range and higher RPM is great with them so that's why I've done it.

Steve - thanks very much for the guidance. I think I'll go with the 6.2s. They sound about right for my build and anything I might do later.

Ken

[Steve Cole]

Mastertune already allows you to cut and paste the values! Its always been there, but I do not know if the SESPT allows it.