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[cvo1717]

does the thunder max tuner from zippers automatically tune the bike no matter what you change without the need to dyno? ie cams heads exhaust

[Twolanerider]

"Automatically" as in no user intervention of any kind?  If that's your question no the answer would be no; not in any case.

In a best case scenario you make your hardware changes and find a map in their library that is represented as being tuned for an engine with changes similar to yours.  You then load that map and ride on allowing the system to make any final changes of the fuel curve from there (it doesn't alter the timing curve).

Worst case is that no map exists in their library that approximates your build or the map they offer that is supposed to is poor (it happens).  In either case you hope you can find someone with a dyno who uses their system/software.  That's not always an easy find.

[cvo1717]

Ok thanks I was told the tuner automatically adjust as you ride

[Twolanerider]

Ok thanks I was told the tuner automatically adjust as you ride

It does adjust the AFR (at least within certain ranges).  But to do run effectively (relative to your build) it needs at least a close base map to start with.  And it only adjusts AFR.  Doesn't touch timing at all.  In fact it does less with the timing than the factory ECM does.  The ECM at least monitors the ION sensing circuit through the coil, plugs and wires to sense detonation and retard a bit if it feels this be necessary. The T-Max does not monitor the ION sensing and will just keep right on hammering if detonation happens.

[eleft36]

"Doesn't touch timing at all."
Not the total truth, it's timing changes with the engine temperature according to the chosen map.

Al

Refer to the pdf. attached

[Twolanerider]

"Doesn't touch timing at all."
Not the total truth, it's timing changes with the engine temperature according to the chosen map.

Al

Refer to the pdf. attached

Have seen that PDF before.  Have even discussed that attribution with Zippers tech support.  It seems more of a semantic difference than a practical one.  Unlike AFR which actually is altered or "learned" to new parameters outside the original map the timing actually isn't; their suggestions notwithstanding.

There is, instead, alternative timing maps.  The standard timing pattern versus throttle position along with other mapped coordinates in separate maps.  So not new continually "learned" or adjusted changes to the timing curve to continually improve the driveability (as the advertising would sort of lead us to think) but instead alternative timing maps that work secondarily or in coordination with the primary map to allow alternative timing settings; but still within preprogrammed and unaltered limits.  So it doesn't "change" the timing from the map or "learn" new timing as it might AFR.  It just has more than one preprogrammed alternative to choose from based on a few other engine settings.  At least that's how the boys at Zippers explained it to me when I questioned them on that very attribution.

The alternative timing maps are drop downs in the software:

[eleft36]

How much actual experience have you had with the TMax. installed on your bike?

Al

[Twolanerider]

How much actual experience have you had with the TMax. installed on your bike?

Al

That I can think of immediately have installed nine.  Had one on my 05 for four years before it went to something else.  Have one currently on my 2000 Road Glide as part of their larger Marelli conversion and it's been there four years.  In the software with some regularity for its monitoring utilities and spent a fair bit of time on each of mine and several others doing the initial dial-ins. 

[eleft36]

What is the "something else" and why?
Does the "something else" have a simpler venue to get as good ride-ability?

Do you agree with a TMax pinging can be tuned out easily with it's transparency by just moving the little boxes with your mouse while linked, real time?
Not like some others where re-flash is needed.

Al

[Twolanerider]

What is the "something else" and why?
Does the "something else" have a simpler venue to get as good ride-ability?

I tried (and very much liked) the EMS package from Revolution Performance.  Actually much preferred it.  Seemed to tune better, far more quickly, far more autonomously and definitely with far less effort on the user's part. The company that provided it wasn't able to keep it current with new models though.  It seems to have become orphaned now.

Do you agree with a TMax pinging can be tuned out easily with it's transparency by just moving the little boxes with your mouse while linked, real time?
Not like some others where re-flash is needed.

Al

No, don't really agree there; on a couple of fronts.  I never equate easy or "easily" with actually tuning while riding in a mode that requires actual rider intervention.  So any "real time" tuning while actually under a load (actually riding the bike) I might as well do concurrently with texting and checking email at interstate speed in heavy traffic.  Just not something I'm going to do.  No matter the package.  And there's no such thing as "real time" tuning in the garage without the ability to put the bike under a load.

As to handling detonation as a broader topic the answer is, unfortunately, a decided "maybe."  Some here have had decent experience with the T-Max product.  Others have very much not with this often being the product's issues handling detonation.  The company's base maps are, sometimes, quite aggressive.  The AFR choices it makes can sometimes go out in to left field.  When that happens to the lean side, especially with an aggressive map, it's a recipe for problem.  Personally I've seen the package behave well and make good "choices" and I've seen it go stupid.  Stupid may not happen often.  But for the lay rider who doesn't want to have to screw with things (or isn't able to on his own) on a road trip away from home it's a concern.

I use the Thundermax.  I give it credit for effectiveness in some areas but recognize deficiencies in others.  It's not the automatic, self-loving, self-tuning heraldry of angels to the engine that Zippers would have us believe.  It doesn't suck though, at least not if you're willing and able to monitor the original tune, spend some time dialing it in and pay careful attention to the base map's tendencies with the engine.  Otherwise it's a crap shoot.  Often a crap shoot that's forgiven by an owner's unwillingness to doubt his expensive purchase and just assume it must be "good" because it's not running noticeably "bad."  But a crap shoot nonetheless.

[eleft36]

"No, don't really agree there; on a couple of fronts.  I never equate easy or "easily" with actually tuning while riding in a mode that requires actual rider intervention.  So any "real time" tuning while actually under a load (actually riding the bike) I might as well do concurrently with texting and checking email at interstate speed in heavy traffic.  Just not something I'm going to do.  No matter the package.  And there's no such thing as "real time" tuning in the garage without the ability to put the bike under a load.


My reference is to move the box with the mouse when linked it changed the ECM directly(real time).
Not while moving down the road

Of course you can have your lap top monitor your ride and replay it, when it pings, pull the clutch and blip the throttle and watch on the replay for the blip. The throttle position line will be close before the blip to ID the ping T P.
And of course, if you screw up the map a reinstall only takes a few minutes, what could be easy-er

Al

[Twolanerider]

 what could be easy-er

Al

The EMS product was a heluva lot easier. 


Not knocking T-Max on its own.  But, comparatively, EMS was easier in nearly every way.  And it made the bike run better.

[porthole]

The company that provided it wasn't able to keep it current with new models though.  It seems to have become orphaned now.

Yeah that figures ................

The EMS product was a heluva lot easier................  comparatively, EMS was easier in nearly every way.  And it made the bike run better.

Still waiting for  that to happen 

[Twolanerider]

Yeah that figures ................


Still waiting for  that to happen 

Mind did.  It was almost immediately a little smoother and especially at lower percentages of throttle it was more responsive.  Wasn't huge differences but it was noticeable differences and those differences came in literally minutes with no other intervention on my part other than installing the product.

On the Road King it was a good choice too.  The ECM was ready to go when the bike fired.  Period.  No loading, no tweaking, no nothing.  As automatic as anything could be and certainly more so (and quicker and easier) than the competitive products.  They all may be ok, even good; but they were never that easy to almost immediately get that good.

[sadunbar]

Mind did.  It was almost immediately a little smoother and especially at lower percentages of throttle it was more responsive.  Wasn't huge differences but it was noticeable differences and those differences came in literally minutes with no other intervention on my part other than installing the product.

On the Road King it was a good choice too.  The ECM was ready to go when the bike fired.  Period.  No loading, no tweaking, no nothing.  As automatic as anything could be and certainly more so (and quicker and easier) than the competitive products.  They all may be ok, even good; but they were never that easy to almost immediately get that good.

I installed the EMS on a few bikes - with much the same results.  It's ashamed Rev Perf wasn't able to keep the product going...