Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[HDGearHead]

Just got back from the dealer tuner and I'm not sure how to feel.

The original tune on my newly rebuilt motor last fall made 116.55 HP and 122.60 TQ peaking around 4K rpm.  The new tune on a 1K motor made 124.43 HP and 123.75 TQ.

While the latest HP/TQ curves are not horrible, the power has definitely moved towards the right.  The tuner thinks he could probably bring the HP/TQ up in 2.6K to 4K rpm range however feels that the dyno time required probably doesn't merit spending the additional money (felt it would only produce a better chart and wouldn't really be noticeable in the seat). 

With the new tune, I can't really notice anything different in my butt dyno between 2 and 4K but can feel the difference above 4K (keeps pulling towards red line instead of dropping off).

I've also noticed three hesitant/flat spots between 1500 and 2100 rpm and the idle is a little rough once it's warmed up (Tach bounces about 100 rpm - seems like its misfiring at idle). EITMS is off and I'm 95% sure that there aren't any intake leaks (I did a cursory check with propane).

The duty cycle of the 4.3 injectors installed during my original tune were maxed out so larger injectors were definitely in order.  However, I am now considering re-installing my old 50mm throttle body with my new 5.3 injectors. 

The tuner also still had to increase the cubes to 140 and reduce the injector size from 5.3 to 5.17 in the SESPT to not be maxed out in the VE table cells (Still have a few cells at 127).   The tuner said that he was essentially doing this to fool the system into adding more fuel.  The only data capture that I was able to look at maxed out at 4500 rpm, 50% throttle and the injectors at this point were at 12.45ms.

In my original tune, the tuner had to set the cube to 145 and decrease the injectors from 4.35 to 4.3.

I also had to replace the lifters as one of the S&S with limiters wasn't staying pumped up and would start banging at idle and go quite if you increased the rpm.  Went with Fueling HP+ lifters this time.  The dealer replaced the S&S under warranty since they built the motor 6 months ago and it hasn't been ridden much since.

The tuner told me to ride it some more, note the throttle position and rpms where the hesitant/flat spots are and then bring it back and he'd re-tune those areas and address the rough idle.

Original Tune Build:

- T-MAN CVO Street Performer Kit - Includes:

• CVO Street Performer Heads (2.130 intake and 1.630 exhaust valves)
• T-Man 555 Cams (same grind as T-MAN 625 but lower lift
• Forged Wisco 10.5:1 Pistons
• Cometic .040 Head Gaskets
• Final Static Compression Ratio set to 10.7:1

- Darkhorse Crank with Timken
- SE Ventilator Air Cleaner
- Stock 50 MM Throttle Body
- Stock 4.35 injectors
- Fullsac C X-Pipe with 2" cores (No Packing)
-009SAM002-01 SEPST Base Map

New Tune Changes
- SE 58MM Throttle Body
- SE 5.3 Injectors
- Fullsac D X-Pipe with 2" cores (With packing and Fullsac screens)
- 009CAF002-01 SEPST Base Map

I'd like to smooth out the low rpm hesitant/flat spots that I've found and fix the rough idle.  I'd also like to have the TQ that I lost between 2600 and 4000 back while not loosing what I gained on the high-end.

So what are the thoughts of the tuning experts here? 

1. Is it possible that I could re-gain some of the lost TQ/HP in the 2.6 to 4K range with additional tuning in this area? 

2. Any hints or suggestions regarding my rough idle? I'm willing to make some map changes and reload to try them.

3. What are your opinions on re-installing the 50mm TB but with 5.3 injectors?  If I do this, can I just up the injector size in my original tune that had the 50mm TB and 4.35 injectors and run the bike with that or would it need to go back to the dyno?

4. I've also noticed that there is sometimes a significant difference in the values between the front and rear VE tables.  Shouldn't these be close on a new build?  I'd think that both cylinders would fill about the same at a given rpm and MAP (they're mechanically the same).  Can anyone explain what the general cause for these difference are?

I've attached a pic of my dyno chart from WinPEP with both tunes overlaid and pics of new tune VE and AFR tables.

[HDGearHead]

Front VE Table

[HDGearHead]

Rear VE Table

[HDGearHead]

AFR Table

[CowboyBagger]

I'm looking forward to replies on this one.  I've got the same build only difference is I'm running the 600 cam and the Drago's S/C/S 4 pipe with a TTS.

Cowboy

[mayor]

The ve tables do not look overly well developed to me.  I'm thinking there shouldn't be as much change between the 80-100kPa cells as there are in some of those rows. 

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I would like the see the AFR graph from these runs.  Also, I would like to know how the tuner made the 80+kpa runs.  Did he use the dyno sniffer?  Did he use blocks with O2s in them?  Did he use ANYTHING besides the SEPST?  Something is really amiss with those WOT VEs.  I don't know about Sepst as well as I should.  Might be wrong here...  but 145ci and LOWER the injectors?  I have a 120r with SE 58 and 5.3s.  No issues for me with any of this.

Keep the 58.  Also, can you get any data runs?  and post them?  Or is the tuner in possession?

Where are you located?  I ask because dealer tunes are notorious for being crap shoots.  A handful, like Gails HD, in KC, is good, most are not.

You MAY not like this suggestion, but maybe an actual tuning shop with a different tuner could square this away?

Letting a bike go out the door with crappy idle is not a good thing.  Neither are the flat spots.  Makes one wonder what else that dealer employee has to do at the shop besides tuning?

[hrdtail78]

-009SAM002-01 SEPST Base Map

1. Is it possible that I could re-gain some of the lost TQ/HP in the 2.6 to 4K range with additional tuning in this area?  

2. Any hints or suggestions regarding my rough idle? I'm willing to make some map changes and reload to try them.

3. What are your opinions on re-installing the 50mm TB but with 5.3 injectors?  If I do this, can I just up the injector size in my original tune that had the 50mm TB and 4.35 injectors and run the bike with that or would it need to go back to the dyno?

4. I've also noticed that there is sometimes a significant difference in the values between the front and rear VE tables.  Shouldn't these be close on a new build?  I'd think that both cylinders would fill about the same at a given rpm and MAP (they're mechanically the same).  Can anyone explain what the general cause for these difference are?

I've attached a pic of my dyno chart from WinPEP with both tunes overlaid and pics of new tune VE and AFR tables.

1.  IMO you shouldn't of lost it.

2.  If you are willing to do some work.  I'm sure you can fix it.  See below.

3.  Keep the TB and injectors.

4.  I wouldn't worry about that.  

ps  Does anybody know how to make my typing field bigger?

[hrdtail78]

Rear VE Table

The bike probably idles around 30-35 kpa. 1000 rpm.  Lowest data was collected, and VE changed from original.  The left lower could be lowered 15%  This inturn will bring the 46.5.  Do some smart tuning with the idle at 800 and see what kind of data it collects.  Keep the bike in neutral play with the throttle and get your light load idle areas.

[hrdtail78]

Rear VE Table

2500-3000, 4000 and 4500 at 95 kpa.  Look at VE's at 90 and 100.  I would like to see data runs to see if it was getting to 100 kpa and how he was sampling. 

As far as spending the money on dyno time to make it run corectly.  I don't know what the deal was in the first place, but.... with the bike already strapped down.  It wouldn't of taken that much more dyno time.  If you got charged a flat rate.  The tune isn't done.

[HDGearHead]

I recall that the tuner sampled using O2 sensors that he installed in my 18mm bungs instead of using sniffers up the pipe (My Fullsac pipes have both 18mm and 12mm bungs).

The shops practice is to overwrite the data captures with the next capture.  They tune a lot of bikes and don’t have the hard disk space to save them for each bike (and apparently most owners don’t ask for them).  When I stopped by, he had already completed his WOT to redline run and no longer had the data capture for it.  He over wrote it with the 4500 rpm 50% throttle capture that he had just made which I was able to look at.

When I dropped the bike off on Wed for a Thursday tuning appointment, I expressed that it was important to me to have the bike back for the holiday weekend as I was hoping ride over the weekend.  The shop then ran into issues with another build and my tune got pushed back.  My bike wasn't ready for pick-up until late Sat morning.  The weather turned bad so it wasn't an issue for me.  However, I got the feeling that the service tech felt pressured by the dealer to complete mine and other work orders that were behind.  The dealer also had an event scheduled for the weekend that added to the chaos. 

Because he wasn't able to spend as much time riding the bike as he would have liked after finishing the tune (weather, dealer event and other work), he advised me before I left that if I found any rough spots to bring it back in and he'd correct them (which I trust that he'll do).

In hindsight, I probably would have been better off if I had just told them up front to keep it as long as they needed.

While I haven’t been able to put many miles on it since picking it up due to the weather, I can say that it is extremely quick and responsive –like a crotch rocket (outside of the three very narrow spots that I've found so far at around 1500, 1800 and 2050 rpm).   
 
The idle is set to 904 rpm.  The tach shows it idling at just under 1000 and then it drops to about 900 and then bounces to 1050 and then settles back to just under 1000.  It sounds like it skips a beat when this occurs ( EITMS is definitely turned off). 

He said he’ll take care of it this when I bring it back in for the other spots that I found.

Prior to having it retuned, I selected and loaded a new base map that included the 58mm TB and 5.3 injectors the and then completed several smart tune sessions myself with the cubes set at 110 and injectors set to 5.3.  When I reached the point of smart tuning the cells above 3k RPM, the super tuner software began popping up messages that generated VE values exceed 127.5 and that I needed to up the cubes within the program (which I chose not to do during my own smart tuning sessions).

In another thread (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=83032.0), I asked why my tuner (same guy) had to increase the cubes to 145 and decrease the injector size from 4.35 to 4.3 to set the VE table in my original tune.  At that time the bike was running a 50mm TB with 4.35 injectors (which were running at or near 100% duty cycle at 6K rpm).  Steve Cole indicated that upping the cubes and decreasing the injector size in the SEPST was a way to get around limits in the ECM to enable it to provide more fuel than would it otherwise.  This was a possibly indication that the injectors may be too small. 

This is one of the reasons that I upgraded the injectors to 5.3 (decided to add the 58mm TB and upgrade to the Fullsac D pipe at the same time).   I was hoping that the tuner would be able to tune it the second time around without having to resort to increasing the cubes and messing with the injector size.  However, he still had to increase the cubes and reduce the injectors size by almost as much as the first tune to set the VE tables.

When I asked the tuner if I possibly needed 6.2 injectors, he said that I probably could go even larger (6.9), however because of how I ride, he recommended that I stay with the 5.3 injectors (they're not exceeding 80% duty cycle in the RPM /MAP areas that I spend the overwhelming majority of my time and they're good for about 67 HP per each injector).

I’ll post the VE Table from my original tune having the 50mm TB, 4.35 injectors and Fullsac C from the same tuner.

I think I am going to leave the 58mm TB installed.  I'll put some more miles on it when the weather permits (hopefully next week) and note any weak spots that I find and then bring it back in to him to correct as he offered.  Hopefully he’ll  fine tune /smooth the VE tables out some more.

I am also considering increasing the injectors to 6.2 or 6.9.  I’m going to discuss this more with the tuner next week.  Ultimately, once I get the parts combination right (or am satisfied with them), I plan to make an appointment with Doc to tune it with the TTS that I also have.

[HDGearHead]

Front VE Table from my original tune with 50mm TB, 4.35 injectors and Fullsac C pipe.  Cubes upped to 145 and injectors size decreased from 4.35 to 4.3.

[HDGearHead]

Rear VE Table from my original tune with 50mm TB, 4.35 injectors and Fullsac C pipe.  Cubes upped to 145 and injectors size decreased from 4.35 to 4.3.

[HDGearHead]

AFR Table from my original tune with 50mm TB, 4.35 injectors and Fullsac C pipe.  Cubes upped to 145 and injectors size decreased from 4.35 to 4.3.

[HDGearHead]

The bike probably idles around 30-35 kpa. 1000 rpm.  Lowest data was collected, and VE changed from original.  The left lower could be lowered 15%  This inturn will bring the 46.5.  Do some smart tuning with the idle at 800 and see what kind of data it collects.  Keep the bike in neutral play with the throttle and get your light load idle areas.

Thanks for the tip.  I give it a go later this week and see what happens.