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[Steve Cole]

Like all sensors they are a little different from one to another but the truth is they are all close enough to not really have to worry about it when replacing narrow band sensors. Broad Band sensors have a factory trim part built into the connector in them to adjust the circuity for there variations but some of the aftermarket units cut those out and throw them away.  When they are going bad now that's another story. It all depends on how hot they got for how long and what fuel was run past them. If they were run cruising on the open road versus run hard pulling a trailer fully load makes a difference for the life of a sensor. I've seen them go bad in 5000 miles and others on HD's that have been fine for 30K miles.

[mayor]

So I am guessing that this discussion was put to bed b/c it dosent show repeatability. 

I don't think we reached that point at all.  I think we are seeing a variance, but the trends do seem to line up. 

If i get a chance I will test this on the dyno with my bike and have better direct information and show the Dyno AFR on the same graph as the NB voltages.

I think recording your data and matching it up to the dyno recorded data is a good step towards testing validity of this, since data from one bike alone can not be considered enough to check validity. 

[Steve Cole]

I think recording your data and matching it up to the dyno recorded data is a good step towards testing validity of this, since data from one bike alone can not be considered enough to check validity. 

I am glad some of you are at least willing to look at the data now. I can tell you that the one test shown is just like the thousands of others that have already been done before. There is a clear trend and knowing how to interpret the data properly is the trick to it all. Just as the Broad Bands only show a trend and you have to know how to interpret those readings. HD does NOT do it the same for each model, let alone each model year so you have to learn them all.

[joe_lyons50023]

Have you seen it be more calibration specific?  Dealing with the bias voltages I would imagine make these numbers a bit different.  What are the bias voltages there for and why choose 950-957mv instead of say 2 volts or 4 volts, just curious?

[Steve Cole]

The ECM has no idea of where the fuel system is unless YOU tell it what to look for. The bias table (CLB) is just that, only during Closed Loop operation. So the system checks the average O2 voltage and then compares it to the CLB that YOU have set. The system will then make adjustments to cause the O2 voltage to move to a place closer to what YOU have asked for provided it is capable of doing it.

You keep bring up this 950 - 957 number and I have no idea where you dreamed them up from, so I cannot help you on that.

[mayor]

I can tell you that the one test shown is just like the thousands of others that have already been done before. There is a clear trend and knowing how to interpret the data properly is the trick to it all. Just as the Broad Bands only show a trend and you have to know how to interpret those readings. HD does NOT do it the same for each model, let alone each model year so you have to learn them all.

I think this post is the concern that I have over tuning with narrow bands.  If each model could have a different value to target at wide open, how does the average DIY'er know what they should be targeting?  With the broad bands, the target values are much more defined.  Seeing trends is one thing, knowing that 1420mV at wide open throttle is rich on one bike and lean on another is a much harder thing to know.   

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Rufus knows the offsets.  That was posted years ago.  It's going to be year and model specific.  I don't see an issue, the software can 'plop' in the correct offset when a small questionnaire can be part of a cal.

I know that 07/08 touring was zero off set.  09 had a slight offset, and when the 12mm NBs were introduced the offset jumped again.

[hrdtail78]

Offsets need to be published or a Data Master program needs created that knows the offsets. DM2 knows the cal in the bike.

[Steve Cole]

Offsets need to be published or a Data Master Vtune program needs created that knows the offsets. DM2 knows the cal in the bike.

 

[mayor]

which is direction I thought this needed to be heading all along.  The only way that narrow band tuning WOT works is to make it as user friendly as possible, and the software has to be part of that.   

[Steve Cole]

It works with or without software but one way is much easier for the DIY and much harder on me.

[mayor]

well, I'm all about making things tough on you...so you know which way I'm leaning.   

[Hilly13]

The anticipation is killing me 

[Steve Cole]

Do not think it's done already 'cause it's not! There is a lot to do to get it all working properly in all the various conditions that arise but I did show it to you at the VTwin show earlier this year.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Looking at Joes fuel line, and Mayors a bit too...  I think we are missing how to do this all properly.  I feel one has to 'calibrate' what 13.2 AFR would read like at a steady pace rpm and gain the voltages that way.  Otherwise, Like Joe's comment that the voltages are all over the place...  did it hit anyone that his voltages SHOULD be all over the place, because his fuel line is?

Again, this test needs a steady state output of 13.2 AFR, read the voltage of THAT...  NOT a sweep.  Then go and adjust the 80-100kpa VEs to match THAT voltage (or as close as possible) and THEN... only after all of this, should the fuel line from the dyno be looked at.

I am going to do this tonight or in the morning with the 120r.  Relatively new O2s.  Same with the Lambda bike tomorrow... decent sensors.