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[whittlebeast]

I totally agree.   A least the wide bands tend to stay fairly linier.

[FLTRI]

I totally agree.   A least the wide bands tend to stay fairly linier.

True, however this thread was not to compare broadbands to NBs.
What this thread was about was to see if those with the necessary equipment could get to their targeted WOT AFR by using a given NB voltage.

As you can tell by the posts from those who did the test, especially #188, Mayor's, and Joe's results, the narrow bands follow the AFR very well.

It must be noted the NBs will not be used for full time closed loop WOT/>85kpa...just for tuning purposes.
The rest of the calibration can be left in closed loop as desired.

Pretty cool stuff for sure...and more to come!

Bob

[whittlebeast]

I have far more faith in mathematics at WOT than I will ever have in devices with well documented shortcomings.  All of EFI tuning comes down to math and prediction of airflow based on sensors we have available to us.  Many of the OEMs have resorted to MAFs as their primary source of input.  In playing with racecars using a MAF for one more source of information, I came across a very reliable way to approximate MAF without a MAF installed.  

As it turns out, if you have a reliable way to measure MAF, it is quite easy to verify that you have the correct duty cycle at the injectors.

Have fun tuning.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

I can believe this thread is still going. It's good stuff. Like Bob says. What is this thread about.  It's not about tuning 100kpa down to the gnats azz.  We can pick any tuning strategy apart. WB aren't used correctly on Harley's. We don't follow the guide lines of the manufacture. Math and predictions?  Depends on the math. Depends on the engine, and probably a big part is how the combo flows. Same can be said of blending.  There are products that map VE's at 100kpa targeting 14.68. Changing the target back to 12.8 has its own set if problems.

So what do we do?  We learn to deal with the short comings and do the best we can with the equipment we have.  If a manufacture comes out with a way to tune 100kpa with the equipment on the bike to get 12.5 to 13.5 out the pipe. I think it will be a hit. Is it something that I'm interested in?  Sure, is it something I'm going to use?  IDK. I have my systems and ways, but keeping an open mind has worked out for me so far.  It is easier just to blow it off.

[FLTRI]

Yep, you two gotta be correct. We'll ignore the testing results and repeat the same old wives tales we've heard over the years.
I find it quite amusing that even when there is independant test results from completely different sources showing the direct connection between NBO2 voltage and a specific AFR, it is simply ignored. Don't believe the test results?

I doubt if race teams win races by believing "that doesn't work we tried that years ago".

The way I discovered the ability to use a NBO2 sensor to target a specific AFR (13.0 in this case IIRC) was in a racecar class (Formula Atlantic) that came with NBO2 sensors in the system. We did not need to use them but could if we desired.

The engine builder tuned the engine to best power then took readings out of the sensor (voltage). We used that voltage to monitor and dial back into that specific voltage as weather conditions changed during the 3 day weekends.... Once competitors figured what we were doing it was no more than another race or 2 before everyone used their NBO2 sensors to monitor and adjust from. Not linear in,any way but we didn't use them to tune to ANYTHING more than WOT.

REMEMBER, the use of the sensor as applied in this thread for tuning was ONLY used for WOT readings and NOT for closed loop operation.

Maybe that helps clear some confusion,
Bob

[FLTRI]

I can believe this thread is still going. It's good stuff. Like Bob says. What is this thread about.  It's not about tuning 100kpa down to the gnats azz.  We can pick any tuning strategy apart. WB aren't used correctly on Harley's. We don't follow the guide lines of the manufacture. Math and predictions?  Depends on the math. Depends on the engine, and probably a big part is how the combo flows. Same can be said of blending.  There are products that map VE's at 100kpa targeting 14.68. Changing the target back to 12.8 has its own set if problems.

So what do we do?  We learn to deal with the short comings and do the best we can with the equipment we have.  If a manufacture comes out with a way to tune 100kpa with the equipment on the bike to get 12.5 to 13.5 out the pipe. I think it will be a hit. Is it something that I'm interested in?  Sure, is it something I'm going to use?  IDK. I have my systems and ways, but keeping an open mind has worked out for me so far.  It is easier just to blow it off.

Yea, BWTFDWK? Years and years of tuning Harley with all products on the market doesn't necessarily give any authority of knowledge to us...it's the folks who read forums and data sheets that know, even with independent testing evidence they stand firm with their beliefs.

Are they the same ones who believed synthetic oil would make the HD roller bearing skid and flatten.
Or maybe the ones who removed the stupid black box ignitions and replaced them with trusty points and condensers.
Or the ones who have said, no demanded that v-tuning or smart-tuning doesn't work.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

About what year did a FA car have a NB?  What EFI system was it running at the time?  I don't recall ever seeing a NB on any racecar that allowed WBs and programmable EFI.  Possibly a hacked stock ECU but I seldom talk to owners about those.....

The interesting installs to snoop around at are the rice Honda "street" car guys.  Many are turbos.  Hondata appears to be one of the leading hackers in that world.

Bob, I am a little surprised that you haven't jumped to the dark side with something like a Motec.  Way cool stuff.  A little tough to get you head around but the data feed is golden.

Andy

[FLTRI]

About what year did a FA car have a NB?  What EFI system was it running at the time?  I don't recall ever seeing a NB on any racecar that allowed WBs and programmable EFI.  Possibly a hacked stock ECU but I seldom talk to owners about those.....

The interesting installs to snoop around at are the rice Honda "street" car guys.  Many are turbos.  Hondata appears to be one of the leading hackers in that world.

Bob, I am a little surprised that you haven't jumped to the dark side with something like a Motec.  Way cool stuff.  A little tough to get you head around but the data feed is golden.

Andy

My FA experiences with NBO2 sensors came when FA went from carbs to EFI. They started with a modded Toyota ECM before they went to Graham's @ EFI Technologies.

No hacking was necessary.

I was invited to MoTec in 2003 to offer my experience with CDS and their ability to track map with data on the map itself...Way cool stuff and years before Stack, Pi, etc had anything like it!

They flew me to Australia @ their mfg plant. They offered my a dealership and I took it.
I stayed with Richard, the owner at his house for a week. Great folks!

They sent me 50k of EFI and D/A inventory but just at that time my wife became terminally ill and I had to quit racing and selling/analyzing D/A data to take care of her.
That ended my track time and driver coaching. That's when I went to work for HD. When my wife passed RC Cycles offered to build me a proper Dyno facility.

That was in 1998 and all I've done since is tune Harley's...thousands of Harley's, from bone stock (73hp) to super and turbo charged (215hp)...last count over 5500 tunes.

Gotta think outside the box and THAT'S what I like about SC, not his bubbly personality.

Bob

[whittlebeast]

Too bad you got out of this stuff about the time it really started getting interesting.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

Seems like some other tuning device companies are also going after this now. Follow the leader.

Amazes me how some people don't understand the difference between the sensors and what is needed to make either work.

[whittlebeast]

Seems like some other tuning device companies are also going after this now. Follow the leader.

Amazes me how some people don't understand the difference between the sensors and what is needed to make either work.

What it "this"?

[FLTRI]

Andy,
You have yet to comment on how TTS was able to use NBO2 sensors to target 13.2 and get as close as broadbands by working with sensor voltage and some code.

You have stated it's impossible but there it is right in post #188.

The impossible took TTS at least 3 weeks of testing and coding to end up with the post #188 results...but those results reliably repeat on FLH, Dyna, and Sportster.

Gotta think outside the spec sheets and forum chatter to stay ahead of the competition.

SEPST has the feature to tune to 100%/100 KPA but must be done @ 14.68...which is ok for stockers but not good for high performance big inch engines...especially when fresh.

Bob

[hrdtail78]

This = this topic. Which I take as. Can a DIY guy take the voltage output of a narrow band and use it to tune high kpa, targeting 13:1?

[whittlebeast]

Pick a curve, any one curve.  This has everything to do with sweep speed.....









Andy

[hrdtail78]

And look at post 13.  Use the link and scroll to the bottom of page.  What are we doing for different pressures and the wide bands?  Like I have said before in this thread.  All have problems.  We can't choose which data to use and which data to ignore from the manufacture.  Or whatever fits into the argument one is trying to make.  Is HD using the NB's correctly to the specs?