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[Steve Cole]

When your number one in the market you have a big target on your back.   What's funny about the PV versus TTS is that the PV guys do not want to talk about the fact that you have to use a HD base calibration and get you none of the benefits of the TTS base calibrations. TTS handles All the Torque Management properly that you do not get with PV and it doesn't seem to matter to them. EITMS that really works with multiple stages that HD doesn't have so PV doesn't have to help with better cooling. All the things that take years of experience with ECM calibration that PV just doesn't have. Then of coarse, the cost thing comes along too. Yes, the base model PV cost more, the PV auto tune about doubles the price again and you do get a very small display to mount on your handle bars. Yes, they have put a couple of things in to adjust that the TTS doesn't have and we have several they do not have. We pick things that the tuner and DIY person can use to give a better tune to put into our product. Calibration for the MAP sensor isn't one of them as they have already been calibrated so we feel no reason for you to try and do it again when most clearly do not have the necessary equipment or knowledge to do so. The bottom line is a PV cannot control the HD ECM as well as the TTS base calibrations do along with the adjust-ability provided with Mastertune2-HD.

2014 MY is now out with new ECM's and code in the XL and Touring models so we are busy working on those now.

[whittlebeast]

Does mega squirt work with the HD Delphi fuel injection system?

No it does not.

[mayor]

Then of coarse, the cost thing comes along too. Yes, the base model PV cost more, the PV auto tune about doubles the price again and you do get a very small display to mount on your handle bars.

The end consumer does not always have to buy the PV unit to get a PV flash tune.  If a shop already has a PV, a PV flash tune can be much much more economical than TTS to the end customer.  Dynojet offers a tune license for $199 retail for those that already have a PV, plus the auto tune module can be used on any bike that is going to be tuned with PV or PC5.  This doesn't change the issue with the small screen, but from what DJ told me earlier this year at the Expo they are working on correctly this concern (by allowing a computer to be used in conjunction).  I've used both on a dyno and I still prefer TTS, but the difference in cost will be a tough sell for some shops especially if the PV continues to improve their offering. The flash tune license doesn't offer customer DIY tunability or portability of the tune license (to take to other shops), so these to me are the added features that TTS has currently over the flash tune option from PV that can/should be worth the added cost. This may not be worth it to all potential customers though.  The Direct link key option ($319 retail) is kind of an in between solution, but the up front cost of the equipment does take away the likelyhood of a DIY tuner from doing their own. 

[whittlebeast]

I find it a real advantage to be able to go to a second tuner down the road and if he has a PV, suck the tune off the bike and see what needs to be changed to sort the new issue out without having to start from scratch tuning the bike.

[FLTRI]

I find it a real advantage to be able to go to a second tuner down the road and if he has a PV, suck the tune off the bike and see what needs to be changed to sort the new issue out without having to start from scratch tuning the bike.

So if a PV bike came to you for tuning, typically you would pull the existing tables to see what's been done.
Then you identify the area(s) that need attention.
You then correct that area(s) to run better.
Then what?

How do you charge for your time tuning a Harley for owners?

[whittlebeast]

The vast majority of tuning I do is for the love of tuning.  Most of the people that come to me have been screwed by some guy that called himself a "tuner".   He often simply blew in a tuned and hosed the owner for a full tune.  I seldom ever see the vehicle and do everything thru data logs.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

I find it a real advantage to be able to go to a second tuner down the road and if he has a PV, suck the tune off the bike and see what needs to be changed to sort the new issue out without having to start from scratch tuning the bike.

That is why my customers leave with their final tune and MTE file on flash or I email it to them.  But as I stated before.  If I have to retune a bike that some other "tuner" did.  I like to start from square one.  That way I know what I got.

[FLTRI]

If I have to retune a bike that some other "tuner" did.  I like to start from square one.  That way I know what I got.

Bob

[hrdtail78]

The end consumer does not always have to buy the PV unit to get a PV flash tune.  If a shop already has a PV, a PV flash tune can be much much more economical than TTS to the end customer.  Dynojet offers a tune license for $199 retail for those that already have a PV, plus the auto tune module can be used on any bike that is going to be tuned with PV or PC5.  This doesn't change the issue with the small screen, but from what DJ told me earlier this year at the Expo they are working on correctly this concern (by allowing a computer to be used in conjunction).  I've used both on a dyno and I still prefer TTS, but the difference in cost will be a tough sell for some shops especially if the PV continues to improve their offering. The flash tune license doesn't offer customer DIY tunability or portability of the tune license (to take to other shops), so these to me are the added features that TTS has currently over the flash tune option from PV that can/should be worth the added cost. This may not be worth it to all potential customers though.  The Direct link key option ($319 retail) is kind of an in between solution, but the up front cost of the equipment does take away the likelyhood of a DIY tuner from doing their own.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but. The tuning key for vision.  Doesn't that only work for the vision it's married to?  Meaning you buy a key. Get it tuned. The guy who tuned it. Closes shop, goes to a different shop, looses the vision, dies.......  Seems like this could play out worse than a TTS locked ECM.

[joe_lyons50023]

Not worse BC as Steve stated the PV uses standard cals and if you wish you could then use any thing you want to tune after instead of being locked to tts or sending the ecm to TTS or having an early version of TTS to program an mte file.

[mayor]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but. The tuning key for vision.  Doesn't that only work for the vision it's married to?  Meaning you buy a key. Get it tuned. The guy who tuned it. Closes shop, goes to a different shop, looses the vision, dies.......  Seems like this could play out worse than a TTS locked ECM.

you are correct, which is what I meant by the tune license not allowing customer DIY tuning or portability of the license to another shop.  I wouldn't say that this is a worse option than a locked ecm, since the PV does not affect the ability to reflash the ecm.  What this does do is tie the customer to the shop who owns the PV, so if the results of the tune were unsatisfactory the customer is out the license amount if they go to another shop.  The portability to another shop may not be an indefinite problem.  I suspect that the tune license can be portable at some point in the future, based on how the tune license is purchased from DJ. The license is based on the information pulled from the ECM, so DJ could at some point allow for other shops to use that license for their PV's if the market demanded that.  I haven't heard that they have this intent, just suspect that this could easily be done based on my experience with PV tune licenses.   

[hrdtail78]

Not worse BC as Steve stated the PV uses standard cals and if you wish you could then use any thing you want to tune after instead of being locked to tts or sending the ecm to TTS or having an early version of TTS to program an mte file.

TTS can unlock the ECM with team viewer.  Or as Truk has stated. Via email.  Sure. You can buy something else. That wasn't the point.  You could always buy another TTS as well.  Maybe the sky isn't falling. Don't buy all the propaganda.

[hrdtail78]

you are correct, which is what I meant by the tune license not allowing customer DIY tuning or portability of the license to another shop.  I wouldn't say that this is a worse option than a locked ecm, since the PV does not affect the ability to reflash the ecm.  What this does do is tie the customer to the shop who owns the PV, so if the results of the tune were unsatisfactory the customer is out the license amount if they go to another shop.  The portability to another shop may not be an indefinite problem.  I suspect that the tune license can be portable at some point in the future, based on how the tune license is purchased from DJ. The license is based on the information pulled from the ECM, so DJ could at some point allow for other shops to use that license for their PV's if the market demanded that.  I haven't heard that they have this intent, just suspect that this could easily be done based on my experience with PV tune licenses.

I understand. Kind of like the DL key.  It's under $300 and not a bad option, ( in some cases) but I think I'm the only DL tuning center in STL and for quit some way.  Their keys work with any DL system.

[FLTRI]

OK, Now that the TTS/PV/DL issue is resolved...how we doing using measured O2 sensor output compared to measured AFR out the pipe?
Doable?
I'm hoping after 2 forums and over 800 posts SOMEONE would have concluded from their testing that either it is feasible and will work or not?

Very Interesting, NO?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Here is what my NB o2 voltages looked like at the end of my NB tuning on the left.  On the right is what the widbands Lambdas came out to for the same bike/same tune.  That bike had quite a bit of hand tuning and looking at lots of data.



http://www.ncs-stl.com/PVTune/WideBvsNarrowB.jpg