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[FLTRI]

I don't get it....  Don't you guys selling dyno time do that all the time?

Andy

Who's selling Dyno time? What does this have to do with the OP?
Bob

[Steve Cole]

I don't have any ties to that company.  I just happen to be one of his "power users".  Several ideas that I have proved out in Excel have made it into the code over the years but that has happened with several other companies.  Any more, all sorts of beta tuning devices show up on my desk for testing and to help develop tuning methods for new devices.

That is the fun part of tuning.  Simply look at the data and figure out what needs to be added to dial the device in.  I have prototype EFI stuff on my jetski right now from two competitors that both know about the other.  They both know I call it like I see it and both get better as a result.  They also both have lots of confidence in their products.

It's like verifying a TTS tune with a PowerVision with wideband.

Andy

Andy

With all this vast knowledge you claim to have why is it when asked, you cannot answer the most simple questions? Also when asked to provide data to show some of your claims as it refers to HD engines you can provide NONE. The OP was about O2 sensors helping a DIY person, tune his WOT area, where is anything you have typed in this entire thread go toward that question being answered? Lot's of BS about tuning playing using scatter graphs with MLVHD with not one piece of evidence to support any of your conclusions.

[joe_lyons50023]

"Question" can this be done with narrowband sensors to get a "good" enough wot afr?
"Answer" yes you "could" as long as the O2 sensors are in good condition and this was to be tested further to get repeatable results.
"BUT" I would not recommend this because of the possible errors that could come about. 
But I am just a mere mortal who can't leave well enough alone on my own bike. Lol

How bout this.  Setting closed loop to be able to do 14 afr then set wot area of map at 14 and then run wot a multitude of times and then set the wot area of the map back to whatever u want without resetting the trims?  I may try this too just for giggles.

[FLTRI]

"Question" can this be done with narrowband sensors to get a "good" enough wot afr?
"Answer" yes you "could" as long as the O2 sensors are in good condition and this was to be tested further to get repeatable results.

...and this applies to all O2 sensors WB, BB and NB, right?
Bob

[joe_lyons50023]

Mentioned above was for narrow bands as was the point of the OP. I have great faith in broad band sensors as I know others do not in the way that they are used but I have yet to see any major issues with the broad bands being used in the head pipe or using the sniffer block no matter what some instructions say.

[Steve Cole]

The question is not that Broad Bands do not work when in the head pipe, sniffer or Measuring blocks. The question is what is there accuracy in those various conditions while the sensor manufacture specifications are not followed? So what one is trying to compare is Broad Bands not used per the manufacture specification and Narrow Bands used per the manufacture specification but in an area where there accuracy is not great.

First one needs to figure out, does it really matter, to what is being tested? We know that HD engine isn't really all the picky about the WOT AFR as long as it's in the 12.8 - 13.5 range. So if you can get it in that range with the Narrow Band sensor does it really matter? Truth is, a dyno tuner with proper equipment should be able to get it better than the Narrow Bands but again, does it matter?

So the question that has been asked in the OP was what is the voltage numbers for the DIY person to try and hit to get it within the range that's needed? There is a start of a few numbers in the thread but they are buried in amongst all the Babble!

If the Broad Bands were used per the sensor manufacture specifications there would be no question which has better accuracy but that is NOT the case so far with the current systems on the market today.

[joe_lyons50023]

My orig. answer had nothing to do with broad bands but Bob brought them up.  I'm sorry I will speak of no more broad bands.

[hrdtail78]

Something that had to be brought up in this is how BB work and how accurate they are?  You have faith because you have been passed down that faith by other people.  The OP asks all of us to do the testing and report back. I haven't seen any testing that shows this wont work.  Heard theory, bullchit math, and all.  But..I haven't seen any data that proves to me this can't work.  Two forums, people selling, Bob's intentions........ TTS propaganda....  Good luck, and have fun tuning.

[joe_lyons50023]

Something that had to be brought up in this is how BB work and how accurate they are?  You have faith because you have been passed down that faith by other people.  The OP asks all of us to do the testing and report back. I haven't seen any testing that shows this wont work.  Heard theory, bullchit math, and all.  But..I haven't seen any data that proves to me this can't work.  Two forums, people selling, Bob's intentions........ TTS propaganda....  Good luck, and have fun tuning.

When I see broad bands and narrow bands showing the same reading at lambda how am I not supposed to have faith in the broadbands.  Narrow bands are very accurate at stoich and when the broad band is reporting back the same reading that show me that they work.  Has anyone mentioned that narrow bands have a temp range also and that we should put a temp reading at the NB sensor to make sure that it is in its proper range.

[hrdtail78]

When I see broad bands and narrow bands showing the same reading at lambda how am I not supposed to have faith in the broadbands. 

What do you do when you see them read differently?  Do you go with BB or NB?  I have faith in them also.  I have seen what you have seen.  I have also seen them not match up.  I really wish we had better things on the market to choose from.  (That I don't have to mortgage the house for.)

[joe_lyons50023]

I check my BB with the test gas and verify.  Then I look at sensor location and then age of the NB.

[FLTRI]

I check my BB with the test gas and verify.  Then I look at sensor location and then age of the NB.

Joe, ever check a NBO2 sensor with your test gas to see what they read? Gotta be heated of course.
Bob

[joe_lyons50023]

You sir are a genius.  That would have been much simpler overall lol.  But I try to get some time to try this out.

[Steve Cole]

Joe

If you look at the graph of the data I posted earlier in this thread you can see that a Broad Band at or near Stoich has very close to ZERO correction needed. As you travel away from a Stoich mixture the correction problem gets worse and worse. When you get to an AFR mixture of 13.23 the error in the Broad Band is ~ 0.6 AFR and as you go richer it keeps getting worse. Since 13.2 AFR pretty much falls right in the middle of the range that the HD engine likes that is the one we need to concern ourselves with IMHO.

So since we know it's off, some amount, in the range were trying to measure one has to take the reading with a grain of salt. There is no way you can use a BB or NB to tell what the exact mixture really is at these levels, as they are used today. So what needs to be determined is what the NB is capable of supplying good enough.

Edit

I also want to let you know that the small heated sensors used by HD have temperature feedback. It is used to control the temperature and apply corrections. The large 2 wire 18 mm sensors do not.

[whittlebeast]

......Kind of funny that the same graphing program is used in MLVHD, Solidworks and many other programs that use graphing, so its a store bought product that you buy and add to your program. .....

I got around to asking Phil about this one and he thought it comical that you were trying to used canned SW to do something as specialized as EFI tuning.

Andy