Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

John,
Consider this:
By loading the stage 1 TTS calibration it will for sure add fuel to open loop areas which helps cool combustion temps under high loading such as bucking headwind, uphill, heavily loaded, high altitude, or all of it.

Also he could change the closed loop to a bit richer target which will also cool the radiated heat.

Bob

Looks like a pretty generic recommendation to me.  

Regardless of the trike having a stock 103 engine, you dont seem to take in parasitic power loss due to this being a trike. There is at least a 10% loss on overall power that would show on a dyno with a trike that has the same size size engine as a 2 wheel bike. Additionally the trike has a exhtended exhaust that is going to flow slightly less due to the additional bends that add a restriction to drop it below the rear axle .

  Fuel and spark requirements under load based on how much air in and how much air out will alter the VE characteristics of how each engine performs.  

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Bob, I recommend a stock tune for now, based upon his inexperience with TTS.  Once he comes back home, then we can teach him.

[SteveFLHTK]

I do have some experience with the TTS, just not with VTune.  I've looked at all the tables, played with some.  I do like the idea of changing the sensor bias table slightly to enrichen closed loop areas.

[FLTRI]

Looks like a pretty generic recommendation to me.  

Yes, generic calibration for a generic build

...you dont seem to take in parasitic power loss due to this being a trike. There is at least a 10% loss on overall power that would show on a dyno with a trike that has the same size size engine as a 2 wheel bike. Additionally the trike has a exhtended exhaust that is going to flow slightly less due to the additional bends that add a restriction to drop it below the rear axle .

  Fuel and spark requirements under load based on how much air in and how much air out will alter the VE characteristics of how each engine performs.  

I am assuming this is a newer trike and lambda calibration. If that is the case there should be no difference for a trike or a RK. FUELING IS BASED ON LOAD.
I have yet to see a "special" calibration from HD for trikes, so the calibration in his trike is the same as the one in a RK, RG, CLASSIC, or ULTRA.
By enrichening the closed loop it will definitely help to keep combustion temps down which, in turn, will help with radiated heat.
No downside to preloading a TTS calibration for the build.
As far as the exhaust is concerned...if anything the additional restriction will enrichen the fueling so win, win.
Addressing the 3 wheeler vs 2 wheeler...the ECM don't care and if it don't care neither do I.

Hope this address your comments?
Bob

[SteveFLHTK]

I am absolutely not a Dyno expert, but honestly, I can't see how a tune done on a Dyno would differ between a Trike or any other bike.  The Dyno isn't gonna see the increased wind resistance, nor would the increase in weight cause that much of a difference once the wheels are turning. 

BTW, this is a 2013, so absolutely Lambda based.

[FLTRI]

I am absolutely not a Dyno expert, but honestly, I can't see how a tune done on a Dyno would differ between a Trike or any other bike.  The Dyno isn't gonna see the increased wind resistance, nor would the increase in weight cause that much of a difference once the wheels are turning. 

BTW, this is a 2013, so absolutely Lambda based.

Since its lambda based fueling is directly affected by load so the tune will naturally compensate for weight, load, wind, number of wheels, etc.
Bob
PS- That's not to say altering the closed loop table, ignition heat compensation table, accel and decel tables, etc wouldn't help to make for a better running bike...but what we have in the bike right now is for sure too hot and lean and a TTS stage 1 calibration would for sure help.
Just my opinion,
Bob

[FLTR2008TRIKE]

Yes, generic calibration for a generic buildI am assuming this is a newer trike and lambda calibration. If that is the case there should be no difference for a trike or a RK. FUELING IS BASED ON LOAD.
I have yet to see a "special" calibration from HD for trikes, so the calibration in his trike is the same as the one in a RK, RG, CLASSIC, or ULTRA.
By enrichening the closed loop it will definitely help to keep combustion temps down which, in turn, will help with radiated heat.
No downside to preloading a TTS calibration for the build.
As far as the exhaust is concerned...if anything the additional restriction will enrichen the fueling so win, win.
Addressing the 3 wheeler vs 2 wheeler...the ECM don't care and if it don't care neither do I.

Hope this address your comments?
Bob

I still disagree on the fundamental fact that a trike requires different tune compared to a 2 wheel bike . Until you have ridden a trike and seen how much hotter the engine runs because of the load ( weight and wind ) along with the restriction with the added 90 degrees of bend in the exhaust system you will see it requires more tuning to address the parasitic power loss a stock engine has in a trike due to the added rotational mass of the rear end, the power train has to turn.

The reason there isnt a specific tune for a trike is most likely one hasnt been submitted to Steve for review to add to the list. Also if you do a search for a shop with a dyno for a trike there are only a few scattered across the country. And Im sure we can lower the number for both experience with TTS and experience in doing the tune correctly. So it really becomes a very limited number of shops that can be used    

The 103 engine is lacking for power to start in a trike. Add the higher static compression the 255 cams create, along with hot starts and kick backs at times and it become evident that the 103 needs a slightly different tune to get any kind of performance and cooler running engine.

I know what the OP is about to experience riding to Sturgis. I had a 103 with the 255 cams in my trike to start and rode it out west several times.  

[SteveFLHTK]

Why 255 cam?  According to everything I can find, the Trike has the same cam as the normal touring bikes.

[TheBobs]

Why 255 cam?  According to everything I can find, the Trike has the same cam as the normal touring bikes.

Triglide has the stock cam, same as Ultra Limited.

[FLTRI]

I still disagree on the fundamental fact that a trike requires different tune compared to a 2 wheel bike . Until you have ridden a trike and seen how much hotter the engine runs because of the load ( weight and wind ) along with the restriction with the added 90 degrees of bend in the exhaust system you will see it requires more tuning to address the parasitic power loss a stock engine has in a trike due to the added rotational mass of the rear end, the power train has to turn.
The 103 engine is lacking for power to start in a trike. Add the higher static compression the 255 cams create, along with hot starts and kick backs at times and it become evident that the 103 needs a slightly different tune to get any kind of performance and cooler running engine.

Fact is, the map currently in his bike is leaner and hotter that the TTS stage 1 calibration.
Is it perfectly tuned for his trike and the conditions? Of course not.
But since it will be richer it will run better and cooler.

Parasitic losses are what they are, are applicable to every vehicle, and have virtually no influence on tune strategy, other than maybe a bit richer open and closed loop...and maybe a little tweek to the timing vs temp tables.
Otherwise we'd have to weigh the rider and if applicable, passenger and baggage to get a good tune.

Exhaust is a bit more restrictive than a normal bagger. So?

Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I do NOT think, nor agree with a trike takes a different base tune, at all.  The tune is about the ENGINE and how the VEs are derived.  Same way, both bikes.  What DOES differ... is AFTER a tune, a trike will have a different cruise area and more resistance going down the road.  This is nothing more than a map based Lambda bike using more map to go the same speed.  Fueling should NOT be different at all.

And to those that think fuel equals a cooler engine, in and by itself?  You actually are mistaken.  A whole AFR point will lower temps about 5*F.  What REALLY lowers temps, is a full on tune that makes the timing match the load, and this MAY differ from its two wheel cousin, but again... that is not about the base map, that is about tuning the bike.

Base maps are NOT finish maps... as we all know we should tune to the bike in question.  So, even on a 2 wheeler, we alter timing, etc to match the bike itself.

Can you, 2008, name ONE setting that should be thought of as different on a trike -vs- a bike?  In a base map?

I would gladly street tune a trike, and I would start off with the same base map as a bike, as far as engine config, etc.

I feel you are confusing the end tune with a base map, and they are not even close on a whole lotta bikes.  TTS is NOT about the same stuff PV is.  TTS is about giving you enough tools to truly bring a bike/trike into a great tune.  PV etc, have slightly limited capacity on tru base maps, and instead release their base maps as truly running maps.  But... things get missed with that approach, IMHO.  Remember, a true base map includes every function it takes to start and run a bike.  ALL of the 100+ hidden settings are adjusted towards the true base map's config.  SEPST kind of does this and TTS does this.  PV, OTOH, take the tune from the bike, alters the tables and shoots it back in.  Everthing that PV can adjust, is adjusted...  but how about those 100+ hidden settings?  Nope.  A PV tune can NOT be shot into a blank ECM and expected to run, unlike a SEPST map or a TTS map, both of which CAN be used on a blank ECM.

I mention the above, because folks that have an idea about PCs and PVs mistake their running maps with a SEPST and TTS BASE map.  Two different things, my friend.  A base map sets the hidden setting for the engine config and goes far enough to have the adjustable tables close.  It is up to the tuner after that to bring these things home.  PVs and PCs generic base maps can be run as is, or with a PV, fine tuned to a degree.  BIG difference Amigo.

[Steve Cole]

Not having the time to get into this but the Quick answer is that from HD the trike comes with the exact same calibration as do the the Ultra's! I've gotten base calibrations from 2010 - 2013 and they are the same in both models.

[FLTRI]

There sure are a lot of folks who swear the radiant heat off the cylinders on fairing bikes with lowers is less @ 13.5 AFR than 14.6 AFR.
We are ONLY talking about the heat the rider feels while riding down the road.
Bob

[TheBobs]

I have a 2012 Triglide with SE A/C, a 2-1-2 aftermarket headpipe, stock mufflers and a DTA-044 tune.  No VEs over 8% (the majority less than 5%) after the first V-Tune run.  The DTA-044 was pretty damn close.  Timing and engine heat management have been the triglide challenge, VEs were easy.

[FLTRI]

I would guess heat management would be coming in frequently due to lack of adequate air movement
Have you seen/tried the HD parade fan? There is also at least one other company selling cooling fan systems.
Everything I've heard is all about engine heat management. I've heard up to 475 cyl head running temp!
Are you adjusting the timing vs temp table or the main timing tables?
Bob