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[djkak]

The same lifter is used in the Sportsters with a hot spec that is10 to 17 psi, and I’ll bet they run a lot closer to 10 than 17. The stock EVO’s, with a different lifter, ran consistently at 12 to 14 psi. The Chevy’s plain bearings are the issue with the 16 psi minimum.

[sadunbar]

Something else to consider is that the argument for or against the routing of pressure relief oil to the low pressure side of the feed gears, or “recirculation” as it’s termed, is still a subjective argument. Some manufactures and/or distributors of automotive dry sump systems using the differing methods in their product, continue to argue that their chosen method is superior to the other.

The most significant issue to consider before choosing to dump pressure relief oil into the Twin Cam camshest is the amount of additional oil that the scavenge pump will be required to displace.

If the feed pump is sized to supply an adequate oil supply at 1,000 rpm, and the engine’s optimal pressure and volume requirement is met at 2,000 rpm, how much oil is being dumped into the camchest by the pressure relief valve at 4, 5, or 6,000 rpm? At 4,000 rpm the pump is spinning x2 the speed that it was to meet the engine’s optimal volume and pressure. 

At this point, I can’t say for sure, but my sense is that we are talking about a lot more than just 15% or 20% of the feed pump’s capacity at 4,000+ rpm. Whatever the actual number is, it’s an easy bet that it’s a lot of oil. When you consider the overhead that this places on the Twin Cam’s scavenge system, do the subjective benefits of this method eclipse the well established downside?

jmho

Djkak,

Your point is well taken, and is why I installed a Thayer 3 stage oil pump in conjunction with the Axtell oil bypass - to better scavenge the cam chest.  Of course, this condition only occurs when the oil bypass is open - and bypassed oil is being directed into the cam chest

[SBB]

Ok Chip, I didn't think you were in to KTM's! Stealer here in town just happens to have the offroad version in stock!

Taz!

Taz

I have had Harley's for 40 years now.
But I had a blast on the KLR, the Hayabusa, the "U" class drag bike, the Gas Gas bike and the Buells.
With the place in Maggie Valley we are leaning toward getting us a used RZR for the back roads.
KTM is a great brand and those Dukes singles are awesome bikes.
So many bikes and so little time.
If the dealer has one I'd like to take a look while we are in town.
If we have time.

SBB


 
Sorry to go off topic

[Hx2]

Having pondered this for a while, and going back and reading all of the posts, it made me curious about all the non-CVO motors and if they are having the same issue with lifters. I went through two months of threads on another forum and there are no topics on lifter failures. I know there are a heck of a lot more of those motors than Screaming Eagle 110s so it makes me question what is different in the 110's that is causing lifter failures? 

I know two months of posts on another forum isn't conclusive, but it does point in this direction. Seems like a legitimate class action lawsuit if we are forced to take extraordinary measures such as annual lifter replacements or recurring engine rebuilds.

I bought my CVO's with the intention of keeping them for many years, but frankly I'm concerned about this issue and it's causing me to rethink my plans.

[DCFIREMANN]

Well I have posted and read the entire thread. A lot of good writing and a lot of good thoughts.

Now that we know that the NON CVO TC motors don't appear to have this problem (I have confirmed it with 2 dealers) it seems that the high lift cam with chitty lifters and I still say lack of oil are a combination that is causing the problems. My 04 Punkin has a high lift cam .657 and fueling lifters, plate with the baisley spring and oil pump. I have had no issues at all and I do run the hell out of the bike. I still think not enough oil and chitty lifters are the problem. I know I didn't buy another 110 motor to just change parts and have problems for the life of the bike. I am going into the motor this fall. I am sending out the flywheels or replacing them with S&S flywheels with the Timken conversion, adding a fueling plate, Zippers tensioner, fueling pump and lifters with a cam. I have not decided which cam but I am leaning to Red Shift.

After going through the motor I really don't want to do anything else to the motor but change oil. Oh and I run Red Line oil in all of my bikes. I don't know what else to do but to try to make it bullet proof!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG  

[HD Street Performance]

Just a side note, a little OT:
It s my belief that the only component that needs pressure is the lifters
They run Bonneville at 6K + rpm and have 10lbs pressure, granted a short run and street use in a sense if very different

[sadunbar]

Something else to consider is that the argument for or against the routing of pressure relief oil to the low pressure side of the feed gears, or “recirculation” as it’s termed, is still a subjective argument. Some manufactures and/or distributors of automotive dry sump systems using the differing methods in their product, continue to argue that their chosen method is superior to the other.

The most significant issue to consider before choosing to dump pressure relief oil into the Twin Cam camshest is the amount of additional oil that the scavenge pump will be required to displace.

Djkak,

I don't know if you've seen this or not, but it's the pitch Axtell makes when promoting their Oil Bypass system...

"This is a brand new product designed and developed by the Axtell Mountain motor team. With the stock OEM oiling system configuration when oil pressure becomes excessive it is bypassed from the high side of the feed to the low side...basically "looping". This causes aeration of the oil and many negatives. Aerated oil is spongy and causes lifter ticking. Also being spongy it results in an oil pressure drop that will cause the piston oilers to shut down. When this occurs engine heat builds and piston & ring life is shortened. Our system directs the bypassed oil into the cam chest to be returned to the oil tank eliminating the "loop".
Results: higher oil pressure at low engine rpms. longer oil life due to reduced oil shear, lower oil temperature, improved valve train control and noise. Fits all stock camplates and most SE goldplates. *SE plate # 25282-11 with the hi-volume pump uses 425-101. Patent Pending #61/693,612
 
SKU 425-100"

Here is a photo of the device:

[sadunbar]

Djkak,

I don't know if you've seen this or not, but it's the pitch Axtell makes when promoting their Oil Bypass system...

"This is a brand new product designed and developed by the Axtell Mountain motor team. With the stock OEM oiling system configuration when oil pressure becomes excessive it is bypassed from the high side of the feed to the low side...basically "looping". This causes aeration of the oil and many negatives. Aerated oil is spongy and causes lifter ticking. Also being spongy it results in an oil pressure drop that will cause the piston oilers to shut down. When this occurs engine heat builds and piston & ring life is shortened. Our system directs the bypassed oil into the cam chest to be returned to the oil tank eliminating the "loop".
Results: higher oil pressure at low engine rpms. longer oil life due to reduced oil shear, lower oil temperature, improved valve train control and noise. Fits all stock camplates and most SE goldplates. *SE plate # 25282-11 with the hi-volume pump uses 425-101. Patent Pending #61/693,612
 
SKU 425-100"

Here is a photo of the device:

[sadunbar]

This is the pitch for the latest S&S Premium Lifters....


"These new Premium High Performance Tappets from S&S are intended for demanding street riders and racers. They are machined to a higher standard to provide significantly lower leak down rates for quick pump up, consistent quiet operation, and stability at high rpm. They also feature a low mass, bearing grade, silicon nitride check ball and a lighter ball spring, which allows these tappets to operate efficiently on less oil pressure. That means they pump up quickly and stay quiet from start-up to the end of the ride, even with high oil temperatures. Thanks to the close machining tolerances and low leak down rates they also handle high lift cams and stronger, performance valve springs with ease, extending the usable rpm range of your engine. Precise top end oil metering delivers just the right amount of oil to the rocker arms. This avoids leaks and oil carry over from too much oil, as well as premature rocker and valve wear from insufficient oil supply."


This appears to be S&S's response to the lifter issue...  It seems odd S&S would manufacture a new part simply for Harley CVO 110 motors.  I'm yet to be convinced the problem does not exist in non - CVO 07 and up motors.  I'd have to see actual large scale data from a reliable source. 


 

[Boatman]

The S&S high performance lifters Scott has pictured look like they have the travel limiters?

Several questions:   (stock engine 110)

Can a low performance rider like me get along alright with the "high performance" std non limited lifters?

Can I use the stock pushrods with most aftermarket lifters (including the S&S)?

If I decide to put a bolt in cam in, can I use stock pushrods?

If I pull the lifters this winter (would have approximately 35,000 miles on them), I would pull the cam cover and replace inner cam bearings, oil pump, maybe cam plate, and install Axtell bypass system.  Replace the cams by how they looked.

Regarding the class action law suit-count me out.  Never got a 1/100 (not 1/10) of what was deserved.  Attorney's are the only ones who made out.

As Angel on the Rockford Files once said:  "Jimmmmy-I got 50% of 10% of nothing."

Thanks-Bob

[sadunbar]

The S&S high performance lifters Scott has pictured look like they have the travel limiters?

Several questions:   (stock engine 110)

Can a low performance rider like me get along alright with the "high performance" std non limited lifters?  Yes.

Can I use the stock pushrods with most aftermarket lifters (including the S&S)?  If you are using stock cams and running lifters without limiters, you can use stock pushrods with most aftermarket lifters.

If I decide to put a bolt in cam in, can I use stock pushrods?  It depends on the cams you chose, but generally it's wise to use adjustable pushrods when installing non stock cams.

If I pull the lifters this winter (would have approximately 35,000 miles on them), I would pull the cam cover and replace inner cam bearings, oil pump, maybe cam plate, and install Axtell bypass system.  Replace the cams by how they looked.

Regarding the class action law suit-count me out.  Never got a 1/100 (not 1/10) of what was deserved.  Attorney's are the only ones who made out.

As Angel on the Rockford Files once said:  "Jimmmmy-I got 50% of 10% of nothing."

Thanks-Bob

The S&S premium lifters can be purchased with or without travel limiters.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Scott (Hillsidecycle Scott)I am going to investigate some aftermarket valve springs to do just that - reduce pressure on the valve train.  I never go much over  4k rpm except on very rare occasions and I think a lighter spring will do just fine.

Bob Wood has a 160 psi lifetime warranty spring, if checked you'll find that they will be almost identical as to the day of install.
Crane has a very reasonably priced set, and AV&V has double-wound, as well as bee-hives for the 5/16" stems, that are also top-notch.
Scott

[lowflight]

Sadunbar, with the Axtel by pass what is your oil pressure running at idle when HOT (normal) ?

[Steve Cole]

I've personally had my 2012 96 cu in Dyna lose a lifter at 800 miles. So the failures are not only 110 engines. The low oil pressure with the chevy bearing is only one of the reasons for there set point. If you can get a hold of a real lifter engineer they will tell you most hydraulic lifter require a low oil pressure limit in the 15 psi range with a spring pressure of 80 psi on the seat. So when you look at the heavy HD valve train and high spring pressures it real doesn't add up well for them to be lasting a long life. The Axtel kit see to be working well to the people I've talked with but really could not say for sure.

[sadunbar]

Sadunbar, with the Axtel by pass what is your oil pressure running at idle when HOT (normal) ?

At idle when hot, it runs about 15 psi.

At highway speeds, it varies a bit with temperature and rpm, but around 40/45psi when cruising at 3,000 rpm in 6th gear...