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[Forum Admin]

Everyone had been warned via Global Announcement that certain behaviour would no longer be tolerated. Threatening members such as below and constantly remarking and being disrespectful of another forum will not be tolerated and has cost this member privileges to CVOHarley...

Sure it does... it eases the souls of some of us.  

God!  I simply cant wait to go to the show in '14.  I am hopeful we can get some members from here..... among other things.  And... it would REALLY be interesting if Kathi is dead by then, too.  If that happens, the show could be a BLAST for me.  Meet CVO members and even run into a couple guys that maybe should NOT come if that happens.  PARTY down like I USED to do!!!!  Daddy ain't skeered.  My state... My city...  my rules.  HEHEHE

I think, first off, it will be fun to bring some of my Angel friends and have them meet a certain member here.  Then take some old 'friends' out for a drink. See how tough they really are, too.  HAHA!  I may be old, but I still 'got' it, when it comes to some stuff!

....
You are speaking with no knowledge... like the folks from the Darkside Forum.  Stop... think...  if in YOUR job, if YOU could gather 50% more data... what would be a better result?  I started v-tuning in February 2009 on the street, I was the second guy I know to use a monitor on the street, etc.  I DO have the chops to talk the talk on DIY tuning.  Dyno IS better... and is the 'why' I ended up buying one.  Not just for 'NASCAR" either... simple going down the road.

...  
So...  I have played with my own stuff for sure.  I wanted to find answers unfiltered from the Darkside.  Now I can.  ANd this is my first, very pertinent, observation.   And... last year, I would have been on your side of things, until I saw it with my own eyes.

[mayor]

So, with the Flight Recorder, on long VTune runs, I would think that there should be much LESS of a discrepancy between what it collects and what you can collect on a dyno, than there may have been in the past. No?

I am really not very interested in 60 or 70 kPa at 750 or 1000 RPM, because my engine is never in those areas. Likewise for 20 kPa at 5200 RPM. I never ride in areas like that. So what difference does it make to have tons of data for those areas? Just asking...

  I'm lucky enough to have access to a dyno now, but I'm also a long time street tuner at heart.  The one thing that anyone street tuning has to realize is in any data collection device that the device can only collect data from which it sees.  A street tuner can easily collect enough data on the street to tune in and around the cruise areas, but they often miss the equally important (if not more important) surrounding areas.  There's also the issue with the on board data collection being currently limited to only areas that can be run in closed loop.  I think this is some of what buckeye was trying to say. 

I know you may not be interested in tuning the 60 and 70 kPa cells at 750 and 1,000 rpm's because you don't think that you ever see those area, but your ecm is likely using the data in those cells to make decisions.  Think about what Buckeye was saying about all the surrounding cells of the ve tables working together.  There was a recent post I read by Doc1 where he noted that properly tuning the lowest rpm row helps eleminate the need to try to bandaid DBW issues that occur if you don't have those areas tuned. The other thing you should think about is how often the open loop VE cells come into play.  In my experience if you are using auto extend of the vtune program to populate the higher MAP areas of a lambda bike, you will likely be running leaner there than you think when those cells come into play.  Being able to easily access these cells and test the outcome of the values of these cells is where a dyno comes into play. 

A good street tuner can do a pretty good job of tuning, but not all street tuners are good.  I personally don't think that a street tune, even from an experienced street tuner, will ever take the place of a skilled dyno technician using much better equipment to make better informed decisions. As has been noted, it's about access to data.  The dyno tuners just have more access to it and not all the data is limited to what is generated on board the bike.  Now if a DIY person takes the time to understand how everything works together, and takes the time to understand the limits of what you are working in, you can get easily get very satisfactory results.   I now have access to a dyno pretty much when ever I want, but I have yet to vtune either of my efi bikes on the machine.  I just haven't had the time, or have seen the need at this point.  That's not to say that neither of these bikes has been on the dyno, but the only thing I've played with for any length of time at this point was the open loop areas of my lambda bike that I know you don't get to sample well with the on board sensors. 

[North Georgia Hawg]

Yeah, I understand about how RPM/kPa points interact with those around them. On a dyno you can get data from everywhere and see it as you are doing it. I get that.

When I VTune with the Flight Recorder, Wiz sets the entire main lambda table to closed loop at .981 lambda. So, the FR is recording data everywhere, from 25 kPa on up. I think I am a quite good street tuner... Wiz says I am, anyway. In the past with the monitor, I could fill up virtually all of the closed loop cells in the histogram from 20 kPa up to 80 kPa, 1000 RPM up to 5500 RPM, in an hours ride.

With the monitor, before we had the FR, we would work on the low RPM cells first, with only up to 3000 RPM set to closed loop. After we got the low end VEs/EGR close, then Wiz would set those cells to open loop, and set the higher RPM cells to .981 to collect that data.

Now that we are using the FR, he just sets everything to .981, and I go out for longer VTune runs, and put the bike through lots of different riding scenarios. It comes back with a LOT of data.

You mentioned that you hadn't seen the need to do a full VTune on the dyno for your two EFI bikes. Why not?

Ken

[mayor]

When I VTune with the Flight Recorder, Wiz sets the entire main lambda table to closed loop at .981 lambda. So, the FR is recording data everywhere, from 25 kPa on up. I think I am a quite good street tuner... Wiz says I am, anyway. In the past with the monitor, I could fill up virtually all of the closed loop cells in the histogram from 20 kPa up to 80 kPa, 1000 RPM up to 5500 RPM, in an hours ride.

I don’t mean this to sound the way it will likely come across, but you are probably closer to a “good enough” street tuner than “quite good” if all you are doing is being the means of collecting data…this is probably best to talk about on another thread though, if you are actually interested in learning more about my opinion on street tuning. 

did you use the auto extend to populate the 90-100 kPa cells?  If so, you are likely lean in those cells.  I haven’t seen a lambda based tune extend to a safe afr rating yet. 

BTW, I can generally do a complete histogram in about half that time.  ;-)   A good dyno tuner can do it in a third the time, and with much less stress on the bike. 

You mentioned that you hadn't seen the need to do a full VTune on the dyno for your two EFI bikes. Why not? 

this is probably better served in a different thread as well, but …here’s why.  First I think I should mention that I am probably far from the average DIYer, I also tend to suffer from a case of OCD when it comes to tuning.  I enjoy technical things to begin with, and tend to take quite technical approaches to simple things.  It also doesn’t hurt that I had some very smart friends who helped guide me along the way. 

I vtuned my one EFI bike (DBW AFR 205 calibration) a few years ago, and had also ran it on a couple of dyno’s in the past just to verify that the torque line didn’t indicate that I was too rich or lean at wide open.  I spent much more time than the average person would in street tuning the bike and I spent even more time reviewing the data that I collected.  At last count on that bike, I have well over 60+ vtune runs, 35+ additional data recordings, and no less than 23 roll on pulls on three different dyno’s to verify that that bike is likely tuned ok.  I would be the first to say that the tune on that bike is not perfect, but it is close enough that it doesn’t give me problems nor does it give me cause for concern. Now even though I feel that I am pickier than most when it comes to my own tuning, I would have no doubt that a skilled dyno tuning specialist like hrdtail could have provided me with equal to or much better results in no more than a days worth of tuning with much less stress on the bike.  It would have likely been much cheaper as well, since the cost of gas alone in my tuning method likely dwarfs the cost that he charges customers for a quality tune.  I still intend to do a full tune on that bike in the fall when my friend isn’t using his dyno to try to generate money for his shop.  Not because I feel that I have too, but because I can. To me efi tuning is still interesting and exciting.  I think I will likely be able to smooth out some areas, and maybe even pick up some mileage since I think I have some areas a little fatter than they need to be out of an abundance of caution.  You just can’t beat having more data, and on board sensors are limited in the data that they can provide.  Same goes for seat of pants power readings. 

I just bought my other bike efi bike late last year (044 DBW lambda calibration), I am planning on adding a set of cams this fall so I only did a few full session vtune runs to tune in the stage 1 kit this spring so could feel good about my wife riding that bike on trips this year.  I only did 10 vtune runs total, but most of them were just to collect enough data to make good EGR table decisions. I also used a Twin Scan with WEGO3 after my vtuning was done to get the open loop areas close.  Heck I was so lazy with that tune that I didn’t even install a monitor to make sure I hit all the cells in the full sessions.  I have a somewhat different approach to street tuning than most, so I usually do fairly well in collecting data even without a monitor.  I also have a pretty good background in flash calibrations at this point so I can spot areas of concern.  I have had that bike on the dyno this summer to verify my open loop VE cells and WOT timing, and I am some what embarrassed to say that I could not pick up any additional power on the dyno compared to my street tune.  All I can figure is I’m likely a quite good street tuner or a very average dyno tuner (could be either, or a little of both).  Now at first you may think that this adds to your argument that you don’t need dyno tuning to get a good tune, but I will say that what I did on the street is likely not being done by a vast majority of street tuners. The calibration I started with was changed a good bit from where I ended based on the observations I was making during street tuning.  The timing was tweaked during my street tuning and the open loop ve values were far different than the extended values from the vtune software. Plus I also had data from external broad band sensors to help guide my decisions before the bike went on the dyno.  I would have no doubt that I could have gotten to the same point much faster, with much less stress on the bike, and a lot safer to me the rider, if I would have just dyno tuned it to begin with, but as I mentioned already I’m still a street tuner at heart. 

[hrdtail78]

Ken,

Go get the flight recorder and hook it up.  Go ride around.  Load the bike up fully, and throw somebody on the back.  I bet you will touch the cells in the 750 rpm 50-60 kpa.  I think that break point is 900.

[North Georgia Hawg]

I don’t mean this to sound the way it will likely come across, but you are probably closer to a “good enough” street tuner than “quite good” if all you are doing is being the means of collecting data…this is probably best to talk about on another thread though, if you are actually interested in learning more about my opinion on street tuning. 

did you use the auto extend to populate the 90-100 kPa cells?  If so, you are likely lean in those cells.  I haven’t seen a lambda based tune extend to a safe afr rating yet. 

BTW, I can generally do a complete histogram in about half that time.  ;-)   A good dyno tuner can do it in a third the time, and with much less stress on the bike. 
 this is probably better served in a different thread as well, but …here’s why.  First I think I should mention that I am probably far from the average DIYer, I also tend to suffer from a case of OCD when it comes to tuning.  I enjoy technical things to begin with, and tend to take quite technical approaches to simple things.  It also doesn’t hurt that I had some very smart friends who helped guide me along the way. 

I vtuned my one EFI bike (DBW AFR 205 calibration) a few years ago, and had also ran it on a couple of dyno’s in the past just to verify that the torque line didn’t indicate that I was too rich or lean at wide open.  I spent much more time than the average person would in street tuning the bike and I spent even more time reviewing the data that I collected.  At last count on that bike, I have well over 60+ vtune runs, 35+ additional data recordings, and no less than 23 roll on pulls on three different dyno’s to verify that that bike is likely tuned ok.  I would be the first to say that the tune on that bike is not perfect, but it is close enough that it doesn’t give me problems nor does it give me cause for concern. Now even though I feel that I am pickier than most when it comes to my own tuning, I would have no doubt that a skilled dyno tuning specialist like hrdtail could have provided me with equal to or much better results in no more than a days worth of tuning with much less stress on the bike.  It would have likely been much cheaper as well, since the cost of gas alone in my tuning method likely dwarfs the cost that he charges customers for a quality tune.  I still intend to do a full tune on that bike in the fall when my friend isn’t using his dyno to try to generate money for his shop.  Not because I feel that I have too, but because I can. To me efi tuning is still interesting and exciting.  I think I will likely be able to smooth out some areas, and maybe even pick up some mileage since I think I have some areas a little fatter than they need to be out of an abundance of caution.  You just can’t beat having more data, and on board sensors are limited in the data that they can provide.  Same goes for seat of pants power readings. 

I just bought my other bike efi bike late last year (044 DBW lambda calibration), I am planning on adding a set of cams this fall so I only did a few full session vtune runs to tune in the stage 1 kit this spring so could feel good about my wife riding that bike on trips this year.  I only did 10 vtune runs total, but most of them were just to collect enough data to make good EGR table decisions. I also used a Twin Scan with WEGO3 after my vtuning was done to get the open loop areas close.  Heck I was so lazy with that tune that I didn’t even install a monitor to make sure I hit all the cells in the full sessions.  I have a somewhat different approach to street tuning than most, so I usually do fairly well in collecting data even without a monitor.  I also have a pretty good background in flash calibrations at this point so I can spot areas of concern.  I have had that bike on the dyno this summer to verify my open loop VE cells and WOT timing, and I am some what embarrassed to say that I could not pick up any additional power on the dyno compared to my street tune.  All I can figure is I’m likely a quite good street tuner or a very average dyno tuner (could be either, or a little of both).  Now at first you may think that this adds to your argument that you don’t need dyno tuning to get a good tune, but I will say that what I did on the street is likely not being done by a vast majority of street tuners. The calibration I started with was changed a good bit from where I ended based on the observations I was making during street tuning.  The timing was tweaked during my street tuning and the open loop ve values were far different than the extended values from the vtune software. Plus I also had data from external broad band sensors to help guide my decisions before the bike went on the dyno.  I would have no doubt that I could have gotten to the same point much faster, with much less stress on the bike, and a lot safer to me the rider, if I would have just dyno tuned it to begin with, but as I mentioned already I’m still a street tuner at heart. 

Mayor - thanks for your post. I am always willing to learn more.

If I can completely fill up all of the cells from 20 kPa to 80 kPa, from 1000 RPM up to 5500 RPM, that would seem to be "enough" data. And using the FR, it gathers even more, faster.

You said that the high kPa areas (85-100) are what end up too lean on VTune extension. I agree with that, and it seems to support my initial argument that dyno tuning is most useful over DIY street tuning for getting the near-WOT and WOT kPa areas dialed in better than VTune extension can do it.

Ken

[North Georgia Hawg]

Ken,

Go get the flight recorder and hook it up.  Go ride around.  Load the bike up fully, and throw somebody on the back.  I bet you will touch the cells in the 750 rpm 50-60 kpa.  I think that break point is 900.

I will virtually GUARANTEE that my engine never goes below idle speed of 1050.....except when it's turned off!

When I take off from a dead stop, I apply throttle at the same time I start letting out the clutch, and I'm at a minimum of 1500 RPM by the time I am out of the friction zone... and usually higher than that unless I'm in heavy traffic that limits my ability to accelerate. When taking off, my engine will hit 2000 RPM almost instantly... and in even a normal, not fast, acceleration I usually do not shift to 2nd until the high-2000s... and much higher than that if I am wanting to accelerate quickly. With my build, you simply can't lug the engine and expect to go anywhere... and I don't.

My engine never runs below idle unless I am stopped and I let out the clutch with the brakes applied and do not give it any gas... something that I would never do except as a test, and certainly not while riding.

I will say that after our last tuning session - in which Wiz replaced the timing tables with ones for SE 260 cams (which are retarded fairly significantly in many areas from the timing tables in the 044 cal), and with the new IVO setting of 3 from the cam tune run we did (it was previously 4), the Honey Badger is running MUCH better than ever. It has regained a good part of the street manners we initially lost when I went to the SE 259E cams and the 2-1 pipe.

I have to believe that much better data collected by the FR are what has made that difference. Also, careful attention to EGRs by Wiz.

I can't wait for the new Timing Assist support in the TTS3 software... I want to get the timing tables dialed in even better for my cams.

Ken

[hrdtail78]

I understand. Did you do the test?

[hrdtail78]

If your willing to play a little bit, and your VE's correct.  Change all values in your 750 to 90. Go collect data and watch what happens to 1000 column. 

I'll tell you one thing about having a tool like a dyno. I can perform this test in about 5 minutes. Allows me time to test.  Here is a test I tried. I set all front VE's to 40. Started the bike.  How Ling did the front cylinder run. I took this as how long cranking, and start fuel was playing affect. This can be done at idle with out dyno.

[FLTRI]

If your willing to play a little bit, and your VE's correct.  Change all values in your 750 to 90. Go collect data and watch what happens to 1000 column. 

I'll tell you one thing about having a tool like a dyno. I can perform this test in about 5 minutes. Allows me time to test.  Here is a test I tried. I set all front VE's to 40. Started the bike.  How Ling did the front cylinder run. I took this as how long cranking, and start fuel was playing affect. This can be done at idle with out dyno.

Nothing quite like a proper Dyno system to try and verify changes. Wouldn't even try to do half the stuff I do on the Dyno, on the street. Just too difficult not to mention....dangerous.
Bob