Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hilly13]

It funny, don't you think, that those that don't know, don't know that they don't know   

[CVOjh]

I very much enjoy this thread cause we have real feed back from live users. I personally have used a TTS mastertune on my 2010 FLHTK and had great results with it. It sure is cumbersome but gets the job done. I was going to buy the PV for the new FLHTKSE to get the display. I am now going to wait for the TTS equivalent.
And BTW is OK to improve on what others have done.

[tlr]

thank you all for your responses and input.  this has been a very informative thread for me.  As i mentioned I have used both Fullsac with the TTS on my 09 and Power Vision on my 12, both with great results.  Here is my take away and please let me know if I am incorrect in my thinking.  First, I am a novice in every sense of the word, although I enjoy tinkering and working on my bike, but my knowledge is limited.  My conclusion is that if I want ease of install and am OK with getting close, say 90% or little more and I don't think that I will dyno, then PV is a fine solution.  On the other hand, using TTS with Steve's map from Fullsac and his cores is a more refined map (since he spends alot of time dyno'ing and with his head pipe and cores) gets me lets say somewhere north of 95%, and I can relatively easily find a tuner that uses TTS (not too hard) and dyno to get my specific bike further dialed in.  I do agree that the TTS install was a little more cumbersome but was also pretty easy and seamless.  I hope I got this right and did not misrepresent or offend anyone.  Just looking to get educated and make good decisions.  Peace all.

[05Train]

thank you all for your responses and input.  this has been a very informative thread for me.  As i mentioned I have used both Fullsac with the TTS on my 09 and Power Vision on my 12, both with great results.  Here is my take away and please let me know if I am incorrect in my thinking.  First, I am a novice in every sense of the word, although I enjoy tinkering and working on my bike, but my knowledge is limited.  My conclusion is that if I want ease of install and am OK with getting close, say 90% or little more and I don't think that I will dyno, then PV is a fine solution.  On the other hand, using TTS with Steve's map from Fullsac and his cores is a more refined map (since he spends alot of time dyno'ing and with his head pipe and cores) gets me lets say somewhere north of 95%, and I can relatively easily find a tuner that uses TTS (not too hard) and dyno to get my specific bike further dialed in.  I do agree that the TTS install was a little more cumbersome but was also pretty easy and seamless.  I hope I got this right and did not misrepresent or offend anyone.  Just looking to get educated and make good decisions.  Peace all.

I have no experience with Fullsac, so I can't comment on Steve's maps.  I can tell you that the base PV calibration I got from Fuel Moto was far more dialed-in than the base TTS calibration for the exact reason you mention: the dyno time invested.

The simple fact is that most of these tuners are used on Stage 1 bikes - pipes, mufflers, air cleaners.  Lumpy cams and high-compression builds are the exception, not the rule.  Either tuner is eminently capable of making a Stage 1 bike run dramatically better than stock, and neither one is going to make a difference in power over the other one.  They are both excellent tools, and I'm happy with both of them.

That said, if someone asks me which tuner they should use, I point them to the PV.  The user interface is so much less cumbersome, and the display makes it far easier to collect good data, that it's a no-brainer for a DIY guy.  If the person is dead-set of having his bike professionally tuned, then I'll always tell them to see what tuner their dyno guy prefers.

[joe_lyons50023]

"So when your out on the road and your PV is mount to the handle bars that already as supplied from HD vibrate and it starts raining you had better pull over remove the PV and then lug it around with you. While that sounds stupid, the point is simple and that is, it was not designed to be used out in the weather. That is just why Dynojet tells you to remove it for washing the bike. So all the BS about lugging a laptop around is really no different than lugging a PV around. With today's windows based note pads 7 - 10" in size that are around $300 you end up with a nice notepad that can be used for tuning as well, and it's something you can really see!?

Steve I do cover my PV up when it goes in the wash bay but that PV has been in the rain many a time and has had no issues(water resistant not water proof) And when you say lugging the PV around and you say that it is smaller than a Samsung Note 2 that just kinda confuse me and then you talk about buying a $300 tablet ontop of the purchase price of the TTS dongle but then flight recorder will be out at some point but you still cant see whats going on.  

So if the bike is tuned at 1000ft and then taken to over 5000 feet the map column will still be able to read 90 or 95 or 100kpa?

[HOGMIKE]

on my 09 SERG I had installed catless header, Fullsac 2.25 cores and the map that Steve provided w TTS.  Bike ran great in all aspects and I enjoyed the sound.
When I got my 12 SESG i wanted something a little different so I went with V&H Power Duals and their Hi Output pipes.  I also installed Power Vision and a map thru Jamie at Fuel Moto.  Easy install and similar to my 09, bike ran great.  In all honesty the pipes are a little too loud, but thats a separate issue.  In both cases of using Fullsac and Fuel Moto the install was super easy and I give the highest marks for both companies, just great guys.  The question I have is, what is the difference in the two?  I am primarily asking about the tuners, TTS and Power Vision.  I did not get a dyno on either bike as I didn't think i needed to since they ran great, had good throttle response and good gas mileage.  Is there some benefit of one from the other.  I am asking because at some point I will be getting a '14 or more probably a '15 so doing some research now.  Thanks for the help.

Lot depends on your expectations and riding style.
As an example, my '10 is up to 90K miles with the same TTS tune since 2011. (on the Fullsac dyno)
In my world, I do some long distance riding, sometimes pulling my 450LB trailer.
I just got back from Milwaukee (6000 miles) and the bike is still running perfect.
I traded for a '14 and will transfer all my parts to the new bike. I found a combo that works perfect for me.
(cam, exhaust, intake, gps, etc)
Again, this is how I ride. If it works, don't fix it (or, like the dealer, fix it 'til it breaks!)
JMHO
 

[North Georgia Hawg]

I have no experience with Fullsac, so I can't comment on Steve's maps.  I can tell you that the base PV calibration I got from Fuel Moto was far more dialed-in than the base TTS calibration for the exact reason you mention: the dyno time invested.

I don't think that the base TTS MasterTune calibrations are really intended to just be flashed into the bike and used as-is. Rather, they are provided as a starting calibration for tuning on a generic type of setup.

Therefore, it's really not a very fair comparison to make between the base TTS cals and the FuelMoto cals, which are custom-developed by FuelMoto and are dialed in for the FuelMoto setup. It would be more fair to compare the FuelMoto cals with Steve George's Fullsac cals that he has custom-developed and dialed in for his Fullsac setup.

TTS is the manufacturer of the TTS MasterTune, just as DynoJet is the manufacturer of the PowerVision. Both Fullsac and FuelMoto are respective dealers for those products - and they each develop custom cals for their specific product setups.

In my opinion any canned calibration is really only a good starting point for tuning a specific motorcycle anyway. The canned cal may be near-perfect for the specific bike on which it was developed, but will never be the best tune for another bike. It will be close, but further tuning can improve it on the specific bike into which it is flashed. That said, there are probably many customers who will simply flash in the canned cal provided by either Fullsac using the TTS MasterTune or by FuelMoto using the DynoJet PowerVision, and be perfectly happy with it being "close enough" for them. The ECM will adjust the AFVs to a certain extent over time, and this is probably enough to make many users happy.

Ken

[Steve Cole]

"So when your out on the road and your PV is mount to the handle bars that already as supplied from HD vibrate and it starts raining you had better pull over remove the PV and then lug it around with you. While that sounds stupid, the point is simple and that is, it was not designed to be used out in the weather. That is just why Dynojet tells you to remove it for washing the bike. So all the BS about lugging a laptop around is really no different than lugging a PV around. With today's windows based note pads 7 - 10" in size that are around $300 you end up with a nice notepad that can be used for tuning as well, and it's something you can really see!?

Steve I do cover my PV up when it goes in the wash bay but that PV has been in the rain many a time and has had no issues(water resistant not water proof) And when you say lugging the PV around and you say that it is smaller than a Samsung Note 2 that just kinda confuse me and then you talk about buying a $300 tablet ontop of the purchase price of the TTS dongle but then flight recorder will be out at some point but you still cant see whats going on.  

So if the bike is tuned at 1000ft and then taken to over 5000 feet the map column will still be able to read 90 or 95 or 100kpa?

Joe

Why would you believe the bike is going to run different at 1000' then say at sea level? Please explain why.

[tlr]

Therefore, it's really not a very fair comparison to make between the base TTS cals and the FuelMoto cals, which are custom-developed by FuelMoto and are dialed in for the FuelMoto setup. It would be more fair to compare the FuelMoto cals with Steve George's Fullsac cals that he has custom-developed and dialed in for his Fullsac setup.

TTS is the manufacturer of the TTS MasterTune, just as DynoJet is the manufacturer of the PowerVision. Both Fullsac and FuelMoto are respective dealers for those products - and they each develop custom cals for their specific product setups.

In my opinion any canned calibration is really only a good starting point for tuning a specific motorcycle anyway. The canned cal may be near-perfect for the specific bike on which it was developed, but will never be the best tune for another bike. It will be close, but further tuning can improve it on the specific bike into which it is flashed. That said, there are probably many customers who will simply flash in the canned cal provided by either Fullsac using the TTS MasterTune or by FuelMoto using the DynoJet PowerVision, and be perfectly happy with it being "close enough" for them. The ECM will adjust the AFVs to a certain extent over time, and this is probably enough to make many users happy.

Ken

Ken,

I think that this is very well said and where I am as well.  Thanks for the input.

Ted

[Midnight Rider]

Joe

Why would you believe the bike is going to run different at 1000' then say at sea level? Please explain why.

I'd like to read that explanation as well...

[Steve Cole]

Well it's a good thing I'm not a dyno tuner, isn't it?  The majority of PVs are going to DIY guys who have no problem hooking their PV up to their laptop with the supplied USB cable so they can use the WinPV software.

So now were back to having to use a PC with the PV same as you do with the SESPT,TTS, DL.  
  

This may come as a surprise, but it's really not a big deal to pop the unit into a jacket pocket or saddlebag if it starts to rain.  
Well, off the top of my head, if you're doing nothing but a speedometer calibration, you wouldn't want to reset the AFVs.

Also do not think that the PV puts the stock tune back into your bike just as it was stock. Any HD dealership can see that you had a tune in the bike with a PV as they are today.

Not sure where you got that information, but you're incorrect.

So depending on what type mount that you had to buy from another company, as we all know DJ doesn't supply one, you have to stop when riding and get your tools out and remove it. If you get a quick release mount anyone can pop it right off anytime the bike is parked too!

As for returning to stock NO, I'm not incorrect on this. Not only have I seen it myself again just last week but it has also been report by several others. So you better go do a little more checking and get your facts straight.

[05Train]

I don't think that the base TTS MasterTune calibrations are really intended to just be flashed into the bike and used as-is. Rather, they are provided as a starting calibration for tuning on a generic type of setup.

Therefore, it's really not a very fair comparison to make between the base TTS cals and the FuelMoto cals, which are custom-developed by FuelMoto and are dialed in for the FuelMoto setup. It would be more fair to compare the FuelMoto cals with Steve George's Fullsac cals that he has custom-developed and dialed in for his Fullsac setup.

TTS is the manufacturer of the TTS MasterTune, just as DynoJet is the manufacturer of the PowerVision. Both Fullsac and FuelMoto are respective dealers for those products - and they each develop custom cals for their specific product setups.

In my opinion any canned calibration is really only a good starting point for tuning a specific motorcycle anyway. The canned cal may be near-perfect for the specific bike on which it was developed, but will never be the best tune for another bike. It will be close, but further tuning can improve it on the specific bike into which it is flashed. That said, there are probably many customers who will simply flash in the canned cal provided by either Fullsac using the TTS MasterTune or by FuelMoto using the DynoJet PowerVision, and be perfectly happy with it being "close enough" for them. The ECM will adjust the AFVs to a certain extent over time, and this is probably enough to make many users happy.

I don't disagree with any of this, hence my clarification.

Well it's a good thing I'm not a dyno tuner, isn't it?  The majority of PVs are going to DIY guys who have no problem hooking their PV up to their laptop with the supplied USB cable so they can use the WinPV software.

So now were back to having to use a PC with the PV same as you do with the SESPT,TTS, DL

No, and I'm wondering why you keep coming back to this.  The PV can execute tuning runs and re-flash the ECM without the use of a laptop.  The only times a laptop is necessary is to load the initial tune, use WinPV to modify a tune past what the display allows (smoothing, for example), or if you run out of storage slots on the display.

Your product currently does nothing without a laptop.  Whether you want to admit this or not, that's a HUGE point in the PV's favor.  Everything can either be done on the bike with the unit, or on any Windows computer, laptop or desktop.  There's nothing else to buy, and nothing else to lug around on the bike.

This may come as a surprise, but it's really not a big deal to pop the unit into a jacket pocket or saddlebag if it starts to rain.

So depending on what type mount that you had to buy from another company, as we all know DJ doesn't supply one, you have to stop when riding and get your tools out and remove it. If you get a quick release mount anyone can pop it right off anytime the bike is parked too!

Really Steve?  The PV I bought from Fuel Moto came with a quick-release mount (and cables, another thing a TTS buyer has to purchase).  No tools required, into the Tour Pak it goes. 

As for returning to stock NO, I'm not incorrect on this. Not only have I seen it myself again just last week but it has also been report by several others. So you better go do a little more checking and get your facts straight.

Yes, in fact, you are.  I have it on good authority from the manufacturer (Dynojet), and their distributor (Jamie Long at Fuel Moto) that it doesn't.  No offense, but I'll take the word of the people that designed it before I take their competitor's word.  And if that wasn't enough, my bike - at this moment - is at the dealer having the ECM replaced under warranty.  PV tune came out, stock calibration went back in, the DT shows a stock bike.

Surely if you've "seen it yourself", it should be no issue for you to post a screenshot of this notorious "switch".

[redmtrckl]

In my opinion any canned calibration is really only a good starting point for tuning a specific motorcycle anyway. The canned cal may be near-perfect for the specific bike on which it was developed, but will never be the best tune for another bike. It will be close, but further tuning can improve it on the specific bike into which it is flashed. That said, there are probably many customers who will simply flash in the canned cal provided by either Fullsac using the TTS MasterTune or by FuelMoto using the DynoJet PowerVision, and be perfectly happy with it being "close enough" for them. The ECM will adjust the AFVs to a certain extent over time, and this is probably enough to make many users happy.

Ken

Abso-frickin-lutely.
Just did my brother's CVO numbered bike with the Fullsac DX and 1.75 cores. The TTS map supplied by Steve ran good at start-up but took 2 full v-tunes to get dialed in and in doing so picked up another 5/5 along with some timing tweaks. There is NO one size fits all unless you are willing to leave some or maybe a lot on the table.

[hrdtail78]

"Yes, in fact, you are.  I have it on good authority from the manufacturer (Dynojet), and their distributor (Jamie Long at Fuel Moto) that it doesn't.  No offense, but I'll take the word of the people that designed it before I take their competitor's word."

I think you are confuse who did what.  As Joe stated above.  Non of these units are changing the way the stock ECM works.  The tables are there.  It is just how we get access to them.  There is only one guy that I know.  Who has an aftermarket company.  That had anything to do with what was in the stock ECM.  He owns TTS, and uses other than the stock ECM, we get, to make the base cals.  Vision uses the stock base cals. to make their cals.  Fuel Moto is a beta tester.  I am sure his input is taken.  Just as much as I have and am beta testing TTS products.  I just don't spin that into something I am not, for marketing reasons.

[joe_lyons50023]

Its the afr table and timing that I have an issue with.  You are going full throttle and instead of the 13 that is requested normally it is 14 or 13.8. Do you not get what I'm saying?