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[joe_lyons50023]

So tell me what is so different from the base calibrations that tts does.  I hear that tts fixes the torque management but how is it fixed and what tables were affected by torque management, timing, throttle progress, fuel?  What is changed or switched off/on.  I would like to hear more than we fixed it.

[FLTRI]

There so much difference between the way a stock Cal bike runs vs TTS cal bike runs there has to be a lot of difference.
Bob

[joe_lyons50023]

But what?  I have had people say there a huge difference with just changing throttle progress. And that's not that big of a deal

[05Train]

"Yes, in fact, you are.  I have it on good authority from the manufacturer (Dynojet), and their distributor (Jamie Long at Fuel Moto) that it doesn't.  No offense, but I'll take the word of the people that designed it before I take their competitor's word."

I think you are confuse who did what.  As Joe stated above.  Non of these units are changing the way the stock ECM works.  The tables are there.  It is just how we get access to them.  There is only one guy that I know.  Who has an aftermarket company.  That had anything to do with what was in the stock ECM.  He owns TTS, and uses other than the stock ECM, we get, to make the base cals.  Vision uses the stock base cals. to make their cals.  Fuel Moto is a beta tester.  I am sure his input is taken.  Just as much as I have and am beta testing TTS products.  I just don't spin that into something I am not, for marketing reasons.

Not sure what you're driving at here, but I have made no statement even remotely similar to what it appears you're responding to.  Steve has made the false assertion that the PV flips a switch in the ECM and cannot return the stock calibration without this marker.  That is simply not true.  You are welcome to research the claim as I did.  Having spoken to DJ and FM, as well as seeing my ECM on a DT and specifically asking is any evidence of reflashing existed, I have my answer.

I don't dispute that all these tuners access the same tables.

[Steve Cole]

Joe

Let's be clear, I worked with the HD factory and Delphi on tuning for over 10 years, and that let me learn a few things. Why would I want to try and get you to understand all the things that go on in the backround? Would I not just be telling all our competitors how to fix what they don't know? We made base calibrations with all the necessary changes done to them to start with for many reasons. The biggest one is that MOST if not all people tuning don't have the necessary equipment to be able to do the testing to make those adjustments. Sure I could put in more adjustments and whats going to happen is just more phone calls with people screwing things up. Each and every adjustment we give in Mastertune comes with a full description of how to use it and the necessary test procedures to do the work. That cannot be said about any other product out there. Every bike out there can be tuned better than any base calibration but MOST people are more than happy not chasing the last few HP. There are those that want every last little bit and Mastertune allows you to do that as well. No, we do not give you a small screen to play with and we never will, so if you want a small screen you need to get something else.

How about you answer the last question that I asked you. I am more than happy to share to a point.

05train

I made no false statements or assertion at all, and if you look around on this very site it has been mentioned by others as well. If your dealership isn't looking that's fine but rest assured it's there and can be seen on DT.

If I did it right here is the link to someone else that found the same as I and others have!
 http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=87998.msg1168625#msg1168625

[05Train]

05train

I made no false statements or assertion at all, and if you look around on this very site it has been mentioned by others as well. If your dealership isn't looking that's fine but rest assured it's there and can be seen on DT.

If I did it right here is the link to someone else that found the same as I and others have!
 http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=87998.msg1168625#msg1168625

Yup, they're repeating what you've told them.  If you're going to make the claim, it falls upon you to back it up.  Otherwise it just looks like a cheap shot at your competitor, or just a lack of knowledge about the product.  I'd like to think you're a bigger person than to make cheap shots, so I'll assume the latter.

With all the various Harley forums out there, you'd think that if this "switch" existed, someone would have posted a screenshot of it, or had a warranty claim denied due to it.  Something more than the say-so of a guy marketing a competing product.

[joe_lyons50023]

Joe

Why would you believe the bike is going to run different at 1000' then say at sea level? Please explain why.
[/quote]

I didn't say 1000ft. I said Denver which is around 5400ft or so and the average KPA there is 80-84.  Full throttle which would normally get to close to 100kpa would now just be hitting 80 kpa and asking for 14 afr instead of a better 13ish.  That's OK don't let your "secrets" out.  We are prob. not worthy of your great wealth of knowledge unless we kiss ass.  If the right people wana know what you change in cals they can find out they have before and not just dynojet.

[hrdtail78]

So if the bike is tuned at 1000ft and then taken to over 5000 feet the map column will still be able to read 90 or 95 or 100kpa?

I don't see mention of Denver. I do see mention of 1000ft though. If the bike is tuned correctly at 1000.  It won't see 100 kpa at 5000. It might only see 80. Not a problem for a correctly tuned bike because the VE tables were mapped for 80 as well.

[hrdtail78]

That's OK don't let your "secrets" out.  We are prob. not worthy of your great wealth of knowledge unless we kiss ass.  If the right people wana know what you change in cals they can find out they have before and not just dynojet.

I don't expect anything more from you. You can't argue your case without the slander?  You tried this with me. I explained I dont get confused easily. Maybe others didn't just start with this stuff last year.  No ass kissing required. Mutual respect goes a long way.  So does integrity.  I'm not here to teach a newbie that acts like a know it all and comes off as an ass.

BTW   Don't change your story after you typed it on an open forum.

[Steve Cole]

Yup, they're repeating what you've told them.  If you're going to make the claim, it falls upon you to back it up.  Otherwise it just looks like a cheap shot at your competitor, or just a lack of knowledge about the product.  I'd like to think you're a bigger person than to make cheap shots, so I'll assume the latter.

With all the various Harley forums out there, you'd think that if this "switch" existed, someone would have posted a screenshot of it, or had a warranty claim denied due to it.  Something more than the say-so of a guy marketing a competing product.

Sorry, but your still wrong and have your story wrong too. As a matter of fact, it was the tuners who pointed it out to me. I simply was able to see it happen for myself as well and have reported it, as did they. You don't want to believe it that fine but that doesn't change the facts.

[SteveFLHTK]

I really can't add a whole lot to this conversation.  A couple things, however, for the person waiting on a TTS until Flight Recorder comes out, you can buy a blue TTS and it will be compatible with Flight Recorder, once the software is released (I personally am seriously looking forward to this).

I contemplated a PV for my new Trike.  After some consideration, I purchased a Mastertune.  I had one on my '10 with a custom map from Steve George and it ran great.  Not finding any close maps for the Trike I decided to do some tuning runs.  With some help from a very knowledgeable person, I was able to get my Trike tuned quite well with 7 short VTune runs.  I did 7 because I am about anal when it comes to these kinds of things.  I could have very easily left it at 3 or 4.  I've since installed a cam in the Trike and will be doing some more tuning runs, and in fact, I've been asked to help someone else do the same at the same time.  When asked, I recommend the Mastertune.  As others have said, having Steve Cole here as a resource is priceless.  As a matter of fact, I have pointed a friend to Steve for a weird issue he was having with his tune.  With Steve's help, he was able to find the problem, which, btw, turned out to be an issue with his exhaust setup, and not anything to do with his tune.

Now, having said all that, if any PV users out there decide they want to jump ship to a more powerful device, I'd be willing to help offset the cost just a bit for a used and locked PV.

[joe_lyons50023]

I don't expect anything more from you. You can't argue your case without the slander?  You tried this with me. I explained I dont get confused easily. Maybe others didn't just start with this stuff last year.  No ass kissing required. Mutual respect goes a long way.  So does integrity.  I'm not here to teach a newbie that acts like a know it all and comes off as an ass.

BTW   Don't change your story after you typed it on an open forum.

What did I change?

[Mr. Wizard]

Gentlemen.

First let me say I have no dog in this fight. Don't care what tuner you use. Just be proficient with it without being superficial.

I would like to take the time to present my experience with a conversion from a PV to a TTS this past weekend. I believe Steve Cole just mentioned from above.

Sorry, but your still wrong and have your story wrong too. As a matter of fact, it was the tuners who pointed it out to me. I simply was able to see it happen for myself as well and have reported it, as did they. You don't want to believe it that fine but that doesn't change the facts.

As for returning to stock NO, I'm not incorrect on this. Not only have I seen it myself again just last week but it has also been report by several others. So you better go do a little more checking and get your facts straight.

So, let's start and finish with the facts. That's all that is important here, yes?

Fact: This past weekend I had a 2011 TG in my shop asking for a tune. He has used the PV for well over a year and a half with no joy. Had the Auto Tune attachment as well.

Fact: Like other tuners, I am competent with what I use the most. That would be the TTS Mastertune. The owner of the TG wanted his bike to run and had no confidence in the PV anymore so he purchased the TTS.

Fact: The factory stock calibration was put back in with the PV and verified. Now using the TTS I saved the stock calibration MTE cal as you are forced to do before flashing any library cal the first time. While flashing the first calibration I noticed the ECM Cal ID was not a Harley part #. It said PVAC-01. Weird I thought, I've never seen that before but I flashed the bike anyway.  I did the cam tune just fine and flashed the VTune calibration.

Fact: I always record VTune data before taking it out on the street. Yes, I'm a Home Brew guy. Doc calls me an Internet Guru. While doing what I call a garage tune I waited and waited on the WAITING light to go green. It would not. After three data tries seeing the same thing I knew there was an issue.

Fact: I had no choice but to call for help. Sending all the data files and the VTune calibration to Steve Cole he couldn't explain what was happening either. He then discovered the bike owner was converting from a PV to a TTS. He asked me for the MTE file. Steve looked at it while I was on the phone saying, I see in the code where the PV didn't restore the stock calibration but if it did there are a few switches deep in the software that were switched that shouldn't be.

Fact: Steve said he was able to repair the MTE file and sent it back. I loaded it into the ECM and restored it just fine. I then saved the MTE again so it would be in the TTS dongle if needed again and flashed the VTune calibration.

Fact: Setting up another "garage tune" for idle I cranked the bike and started VTune. The Histogram WAITING light turned green within the 20 second specs it was set for. I recorded data and watched the idle cell and a few more turn blue/green.
 
Now, I'm not an IT guy but I've build many computers and installed many other network systems in my lifetime. I can't see what Steve Cole was doing while I was on the other end of the phone but I did hear a keyboard clicking madly and did immediately receive another MTE file with a different access date/time that he said was now fixed due to the PV traces left in the code.
 
One just can't argue with the facts.  

I could now VTune was proof enough for me and there is something else. That was immediate customer service in my book.

Last but not least. I must say that I agree with NGB here (as seen below). In my opinion this was very well said. And for those who don't know me you will find that I've tuned hundreds of bike and many were around the globe with fantastic results. There are a few members on this forum that I have assisted as well. No, I don't do this for a living but I could.

I don't think that the base TTS MasterTune calibrations are really intended to just be flashed into the bike and used as-is. Rather, they are provided as a starting calibration for tuning on a generic type of setup.

Therefore, it's really not a very fair comparison to make between the base TTS cals and the FuelMoto cals, which are custom-developed by FuelMoto and are dialed in for the FuelMoto setup. It would be more fair to compare the FuelMoto cals with Steve George's Fullsac cals that he has custom-developed and dialed in for his Fullsac setup.

TTS is the manufacturer of the TTS MasterTune, just as DynoJet is the manufacturer of the PowerVision. Both Fullsac and FuelMoto are respective dealers for those products - and they each develop custom cals for their specific product setups.

In my opinion any canned calibration is really only a good starting point for tuning a specific motorcycle anyway. The canned cal may be near-perfect for the specific bike on which it was developed, but will never be the best tune for another bike. It will be close, but further tuning can improve it on the specific bike into which it is flashed. That said, there are probably many customers who will simply flash in the canned cal provided by either Fullsac using the TTS MasterTune or by FuelMoto using the DynoJet PowerVision, and be perfectly happy with it being "close enough" for them. The ECM will adjust the AFVs to a certain extent over time, and this is probably enough to make many users happy.

Ken

Have a good evening.


-Wiz

[05Train]

Sorry, but your still wrong and have your story wrong too. As a matter of fact, it was the tuners who pointed it out to me. I simply was able to see it happen for myself as well and have reported it, as did they. You don't want to believe it that fine but that doesn't change the facts.

So to be clear, you have nothing to back your story up.  You're just bitter that someone else had a product that's in your playground.   

Post a screenshot of this switch, or you're just bitter. 


Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

[hrdtail78]

So to be clear, you have nothing to back your story up.  You're just bitter that someone else had a product that's in your playground.   

Post a screenshot of this switch, or you're just bitter. 


Sent from my iPad, probably while I'm pooping.

More of the same.  He must be bitter because you just got proven wrong.  You ask someone to back up there statements, but you show no proof. Some guy, who you can't say, told you something. That is all.  Then you say others are just repeating others.

You and Joe are a pair.