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[Ironhorse]

I'm working with Dan Fitz at Zippers to try and tune my bike and get its mpgs out of the 20s. I bought one of those $350.00 Daytona Twin-Tec WEGOII exhaust gas analyzers to log the afr numbers. Dan sends me MAPs, I load them in the ECM, ride it with the WEGO attached, and send him the MAP and data log back.

His first MAP was lean, and the bike coughed and spit and ran rough. So I richened it up to run better. The afr was at idle in the 11s, cruise around town in the 13s, and 80+ mph in the 12s. It got 27mpg. His next MAP made 12-13 at idle, 13 in town, 12-13 on freeway, the bike ran GREAT. The mpgs came up to 29mpgs. His current MAP is idle in the 15-16, cruise around town in the 14s, 13-14 on the freeway, and 80+ mph in the 12s. It runs rough off idle between 2,000-3,000 rpms and the idle won't hold steady. I am empted to richen it to run better, but won't do that until I can get an mpg reading.

What afr should I be shooting for?
I always thought the ideal stoichometic range was 13.3.
How come when I am in the 13s my mpgs are horrible?

This is getting so frustrating.

Mark

[Unbalanced]

Ironhorse when we dyno we try to go for 13 to 1 as the target ... .  14 to 1 if we need leaner just less power and 12.8 / 12.6 for more power.

Personally I look at
0-30percent throttle @13.4
40 to 60 @13.2 and
70-85 at 13.0
WOT I look at 12.8

Everyone has thier own what they like in regards to this as well as their own theories ...
Personally the harder I am making the motor work the more fuel I want to give to keep it cool and to make power.   Can you adjust the bands sure just something to give you think about.
You have one of the best tuners in the country with Dan, you should definately pass this by him and I am relatively sure he will share his view on it.

Are you using the WEGO on both Cylinders or are you doing this from one cylinder only?  Have you checked your plugs to see if the front and rear are acting the same as far as output?  Have you been taking any look at cylinder temps?  

Before you went to the M&M Conversion and the T-Max what were you running that you got such better mileage it may help to understand the scenario a little better.   I read some of the posts by you, but if you would summarize it would be greatly appreciated.

-harry

[grc]

I'm working with Dan Fitz at Zippers to try and tune my bike and get its mpgs out of the 20s. I bought one of those $350.00 Daytona Twin-Tec WEGOII exhaust gas analyzers to log the afr numbers. Dan sends me MAPs, I load them in the ECM, ride it with the WEGO attached, and send him the MAP and data log back.

His first MAP was lean, and the bike coughed and spit and ran rough. So I richened it up to run better. The afr was at idle in the 11s, cruise around town in the 13s, and 80+ mph in the 12s. It got 27mpg. His next MAP made 12-13 at idle, 13 in town, 12-13 on freeway, the bike ran GREAT. The mpgs came up to 29mpgs. His current MAP is idle in the 15-16, cruise around town in the 14s, 13-14 on the freeway, and 80+ mph in the 12s. It runs rough off idle between 2,000-3,000 rpms and the idle won't hold steady. I am empted to richen it to run better, but won't do that until I can get an mpg reading.

What afr should I be shooting for?
I always thought the ideal stoichometic range was 13.3.
How come when I am in the 13s my mpgs are horrible?

This is getting so frustrating.

Mark

Mark,

Stoichiometric is 14.7:1, which is the ratio that would result in just enough air and fuel to get total combustion in the laboratory.

[Ironhorse]

Ironhorse when we dyno we try to go for 13 to 1 as the target ... .

[DCFIREMANN]

Mark,

Stoichiometric is 14.7:1, which is the ratio that would result in just enough air and fuel to get total combustion in the laboratory.

[Ironhorse]

IRONHORSE Jerry hit it right on the head. I think at WOT Zippers looks for 13.1 to 13.3 if my memory serves me correctly. Let Dan work on it amd be patient.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg,

I am being patient, I know Dan at Zippers was recently under the weather. I know he is very busy doing other projects too. I know his computer is broken so it's understandable that sometimes it takes him two weeks or more to return my e-mails. He's doing the best he can, he's just over loaded. All I am doing on my end is running whatever MAPs Zippers sends me and reporting the details back to them via WEGOII logs. Basically Dan and I are trying to tune my bike across 3,000 miles, and four time zones using only e-mail. I just left Dan another voicemail asking him if I should by a second WEGOII and hook it up to the rear pipe. I was thinking he can compare the two afrs for any incompatible readings and adjust as needed.

Mike, all I wanted to do was make sure that stoichometric was 13.something. And I threw a question out on the table to see if anyone had an idea as to why my bike gets 27mpgs when it runs great and is reading 13-14afr. I apologize if I am out of line by asking for help, suggestions, and opinons from others for my tuning issues.

Sorry,

Mark

[SBB]

Dawg,

I am being patient, I know Dan at Zippers was recently under the weather. I know he is very busy doing other projects too. [highlight]I know his computer is broken [/highlight]so it's understandable that sometimes it takes him two weeks or more to return my e-mails. He's doing the best he can, he's just over loaded. All I am doing on my end is running whatever MAPs Zippers sends me and reporting the details back to them via WEGOII logs. Basically Dan and I are trying to tune my bike across 3,000 miles, and four time zones using only e-mail. I just left Dan another voicemail asking him if I should by a second WEGOII and hook it up to the rear pipe. I was thinking he can compare the two afrs for any incompatible readings and adjust as needed.

Mike, all I wanted to do was make sure that stoichometric was 13.something. And I threw a question out on the table to see if anyone had an idea as to why my bike gets 27mpgs when it runs great and is reading 13-14afr. I apologize if I am out of line by asking for help, suggestions, and opinons from others for my tuning issues.

Sorry,

Mark

Come on now,, he's the man,, "his computer is broken",,
That's an grade school excuse.
Tell me that's not the excuse for not answering e-mails!

I got back from M/V and mine had been hacked and two days later a new Dell was up and running.
I would fire myself for a lame excuse like that.

JMHO

[SEULTRA]

Come on now,, he's the man,, "his computer is broken",,
[highlight]That's an grade school excuse.[/highlight]
Tell me that's not the excuse for not answering e-mails!

I got back from M/V and mine had been hacked and two days later a new Dell was up and running.
I would fire myself for a lame excuse like that.

JMHO  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

It reminds me of the sign I have at my desk at work. It says "It is our company policy to blame the computer"  

[DCFIREMANN]

Dawg,

I am being patient, I know Dan at Zippers was recently under the weather. I know he is very busy doing other projects too. I know his computer is broken so it's understandable that sometimes it takes him two weeks or more to return my e-mails. He's doing the best he can, he's just over loaded. All I am doing on my end is running whatever MAPs Zippers sends me and reporting the details back to them via WEGOII logs. Basically Dan and I are trying to tune my bike across 3,000 miles, and four time zones using only e-mail. I just left Dan another voicemail asking him if I should by a second WEGOII and hook it up to the rear pipe. I was thinking he can compare the two afrs for any incompatible readings and adjust as needed.

Mike, all I wanted to do was make sure that stoichometric was 13.something. And I threw a question out on the table to see if anyone had an idea as to why my bike gets 27mpgs when it runs great and is reading 13-14afr. [highlight]I apologize if I am out of line by asking for help[/highlight], suggestions, and opinons from others for my tuning issues.

Sorry,

Mark

Mark you are everything but out of line. That is why we are here. I am glad it is running better now. I too am wondering about the mpg's. You should be in the mid 30's. Just remember when you do any changes to your map it is under a new file so you can revert back to the old one if need be.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Texas 103]

Ironhorse when we dyno we try to go for 13 to 1 as the target ... .  14 to 1 if we need leaner just less power and 12.8 / 12.6 for more power.

Personally I look at
0-30percent throttle @13.4
40 to 60 @13.2 and
70-85 at 13.0
WOT I look at 12.8

Everyone has thier own what they like in regards to this as well as their own theories ...
Personally the harder I am making the motor work the more fuel I want to give to keep it cool and to make power.   Can you adjust the bands sure just something to give you think about.
You have one of the best tuners in the country with Dan, you should definately pass this by him and I am relatively sure he will share his view on it.

Are you using the WEGO on both Cylinders or are you doing this from one cylinder only?  Have you checked your plugs to see if the front and rear are acting the same as far as output?  Have you been taking any look at cylinder temps?  

Before you went to the M&M Conversion and the T-Max what were you running that you got such better mileage it may help to understand the scenario a little better.   I read some of the posts by you, but if you would summarize it would be greatly appreciated.

-harry

Harry,
As you know I just go my Auot tune in and the sofftware issuse corrected yeaterday. Zipper's fixed it ASAP. I'm getting about 32-35 MPG from  my SEEG. The ass dyno teels me it's really runnng great. Taped up the throttle last night to see wher I was on TPS Vs RPM and found I was about 25% @ 3000 at cruise. What I plan on doing is coing in and leaming it out from about 20% thru35%. I'm going to shoot for 13.8 afr in the "cruise" range and see what I get. WHen I had the SERT in it it was set @ 13.8 and going to STurgis I got about 38/40.  Comments are most welcome >>>> Does anyone know if the DTT TC88+ will work with T=MAX to record data.    

[jdk20723]

To clarify the software issue, there was a permission setting incorrectly set that barred viewing of certain editing pages in the version 16.2 software shipped with AutoTunes as late as Monday the 13th.  TX103 was the first to bring this to our attention (the computers we are using here run on a different platform of the software that bypasses the permission setting).  It has been corrected with version 16.3 and can be accessed "right now" by choosing SmartLink Update from your Configure button on the toolbar (must have an internet connection).  We are mailing 16.3 on disc today to all who have been sent 16.2 as a backup in case you have dial-up or no internet.

As usual, Thanks!  JK

[syclone]

Dawg,

I am being patient, I know Dan at Zippers was recently under the weather. I know he is very busy doing other projects too. I know his computer is broken so it's understandable that sometimes it takes him two weeks or more to return my e-mails. He's doing the best he can, he's just over loaded. All I am doing on my end is running whatever MAPs Zippers sends me and reporting the details back to them via WEGOII logs. Basically Dan and I are trying to tune my bike across 3,000 miles, and four time zones using only e-mail. I just left Dan another voicemail asking him if I should by a second WEGOII and hook it up to the rear pipe. I was thinking he can compare the two afrs for any incompatible readings and adjust as needed.

Mike, all I wanted to do was make sure that stoichometric was 13.something. And I threw a question out on the table to see if anyone had an idea as to why my bike gets 27mpgs when it runs great and is reading 13-14afr. I apologize if I am out of line by asking for help, suggestions, and opinons from others for my tuning issues.

Sorry,

Mark

you cant tune a two cylinder motor by only looking at the a/fs on the front cylinder...unless you are just trying to tune the front cylinder.  What is the rear cylinder doing ??  
First fuel...on both cylinders...get it close.  then TIMING for both cylinders.. General rule of thumb..more advance = leaner  retarding = richer. This is especially true of a motor under load.
to try and tune a motor by looking at the data log for the a/f's for the front cylinder only is futile.  these things are two, one cylinder engines.....connected by a common crank..and each one cylinder engine has dramatically different fuel and timing needs...if only because of the degrees of crank rotation between firing impulses (why they sound like they do).
You cant only concentrate on how much fuel you're adding or subtracting, without paying heed  as to when you are trying to ignite that fuel (TIMING)
So ,lets tune a two cylinder motor by looking at the a'f ratio of the front cylinder only,,we dont care about the timing for either cylinder ,or the fuel for the rear.
Find someone with a load control dyno who is willing to learn the T-max software and have both your "engines" tuned individually......or you will end up being a very good typist..with a motor that runs fat.
There's a member on the V-twin forum with a 120 Jims motor with modified heads and S&S 640 gear drive cams ...his forum name is " Geezerglide"  runs a Zippers 54mm t- body. Bike was tuned with a SERT by Latus Motors...makes just under 140 ftlbs and like mid 130's hp.
gets low 40's for fuel mileage .

Just my opinion....I could be wrong.

[Ironhorse]

syclone,

Thanks for the input. I kinda thought along your lines of thinking about the two front and rear afrs. I even considered getting another WEGOII just for the rear cylinder. Then someone on another forum turned me onto a FI sub harness that allows the M&M bikes to change over to Delphi. Not a "Delphi-Like" system, but true Delphi.

I swapped it out this week, changed my coil to an '02, and installed a T-Max Delphi ECM to go along with my Zippers T-Body. I hooked up the dual O2 Auto-Tune, and it seems to be working fine. Today I set the IAC Stop. I set the software for closed loop, and the system is reading both front and rear afrs. The afr is currently set for 13.1. I talked to JK today, and he said to leave it and ride it to see what my inital mpgs are. This weekend I'll try and log a couple hundred miles on it and let the system "learn" some more. JK said that as the ECM learns more about my build and my riding habits, my mpgs will improve. Then if I wish to tweak it, I can.

JK added that the nice thing about this system for me is the ability to adjust certain rpms and throttle positions individually. I can leave the bike at 13.1 at idle and off idle, but lean it out when running on the freeway. I am going to try and ride to the mountains this weekend and see how it performs going from sea level to elevation.

Mark

[Unbalanced]

Syclone,
As I remember it and that is subject to being errand ramblings, but I thought Geezer had a Kuryakin 57mm throttle body not a Zippers, that motor had SBC headwork.

[syclone]

Harry

You holding back?
You own another bike with a 120?

 [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Harry was simply quoting "geezerglide"......  I was using Geezer's motor as an example of a big motor, making big numbers, and with a proper tune, getting excellent mileage.