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[WA CVO]

I have put RCX slip ons on my FLHTKSE.  Since it already has the SE air cleaner, does it need a Stage 1 MAP?  I had always thought that changing the exhaust did not matter as much as changing the intake (A/C).  So, if it already has the MAP for the A/C do I need a new one now that the exhaust is opened a bit more but still retained the CAT?

--Rob

[2k]

Everybody I've talked with says your ECM can easily adjust for a pipe change. If a new map means new $$$, I would ride it awhile 1st. My bet is that you are good to go.

[eddfive]

Quite the opposite actually, the exhaust has the biggest effect on air through the motor which correlates to the tune. I have no idea where this Harley "LORE" came from but changing either effects the state of the tune with the exhaust having the biggest effect. Bike O2 sensors can pull it back in to a degree but you will be running lean. If the base tune is too far off to begin with the bike O2 sensors may not pull it in.

[owl893]

well here we go again; hopefully timo, GRC, Doc, old_dirt or one of the tuner experts will pick up this post, so consider this ONLY based on my experience, you do not need to re-map at this point.  In a perfect world the ECM would make the adjustment for you, that is not ALWAYS the case (I have learned). I agree with 2k, ride the bike for a while, read some things here about tuners (like TTS, Harley's Super tuner, Power Vision, and others). When you have done this, you can then make an informed decision about re-mapping your bike.  IF you plan additional performance changes you definitely should include a tuner and dyno run.

OK, that said, eddfive isn't wrong either. I have learned here that even a brand new bone stock bike can probably benefit from a dyno evaluation and some tweaking, the base maps are NOT unique to your bike, they are generic to your model. "Tuning" is a little spendy though, so plan your work first, and work your plan second.

OWL

[old_dirt]

OP, you have it backwards.  Installing that AC did nothing but change the looks of the bike, when that is the only thing done.  Now that you have changed exhausts, you have a Stage 1.  Download will NOT help this at all.  STage 1s NEED a tune.  PERIOD.  You will really do yourself a disservice to run the bike like this without some kind of tune, as you have completely changed the amount of air now cycling through your engine.  A "Download" or other BS from a dealer will NOT help... as the Downloads do NOT change fuel.

If you plan on keeping your bike... don't be cheap with that CVO bike...  get a tune from a reputable tuner.  Costs will be about $1000 for a good tune with a tuner included.  I do not know exactly where in WA you are located...  but it would be well worth your while to visit Lonewolf Performance in BC.  Russel is one of the top tuners in this continent.

Here's the real deal.  The first, and largest of the Harley 'taxes' is one HAS to buy some sort of tuner if they change ANYTHING for more performance.  It's just a fact of life... and our bikes will NOT 'dial' in with big changes...  only very small changes, of which new cans is the biggest change one can make.  The bike simply can not compensate for that large of an increase in air moving thru the motor.  From 07 to 11, the folks that made exhausts perpetuated this crap.  Notice how now-a-days, D&D, etc NOW state a tune IS necessary for an exhaust change?  That is because all of us tuners knew better and they decided to QUIT lying to the public.

And... this is actually NOT about a lean engine will destroy itself.  Thats another unfounded myth.  IMHO... a lean engine will shorten life at some point... but NOT right away. Your bike will run with NO changes.  What it won't do, however is run as it should at all.  A true Stage 1 includes a tune so that the bike really can get that increase of power the parts installed deserve.

Changing exhausts will overload a bike's ability to compensate and that is actually all there is too it.  I have seen this time and again on all kinds of bikes.  You can believe me and EDFive or not... it IS the truth, though.  It's your bike, in the end.  You can do with it as you wish, and it will run.  My question is this... after buying such an expensive bike, is it now too much to throw another $1000ish at it to make it run the way it should?  Or, will you listen to the folks that only get info from the internet and what they have done to their one bike.  Think about this:  if a bike truly would 'compensate' why is there all kinds of tuning shops and tuning devices?  And why is there thousands of happy customers AFTER a tune is done.

Take the time and money to protect your investment and to enjoy a true boost in power and rideability, go see Russel

[owl893]

well I can't disagree with your Logic old_dirt, and you are an expert, no question.  However, his bike came with a heavy breather, all he did is install a set of slip-ons, in your world you run the bike in and re-tune it on your own dyno (that is so cool) but in the world of "practical decisions" I (for one) hold off on the tune. I want it, I need it, but I also want to do a couple of other things before I tune it.  New bike, new payments, bought the pipes, for some of us it adds up, and I can't afford to run to my tuner three times a year.   

OWL

[T-Roy]

When I bought my 2013 SERK last April I changed the mufflers at 200 miles at the Harley shop in Houma Louisiana during the State HOG rally. I did nothing to the tuning at that time. I rode the bike till I had about 4000 miles on it. During that time I bought components I need and researched to find a tuner (person and hardware). Then I changed the head pipes myself and used the SE tuner to put a generic MAP in the bike for all race exhausts. This allowed me to ride the bike the 3 hours to my tuner (person) and have him dyno tune the bike. I did not have any issues doing it this way.

From this experience, and from what a lot of knowledgeable people have told me, I feel as long as you are NOT changing the header pipes you should be fine to ride it for a while without a tune.

[tweeter13]

I also must agree with old dirt.  I switched out just the baffles in my cans.  It came with the high flow air filter already so tried it.  To me seemed a little hotter and didn't run as good.  Just a quick flash from Steve's library to match your options will make a huge difference.  That don't mean that other tuning devices won't work.  His was just the easiest.  When I change the head pipes I will have a dyno tune done then. 


Some people may never notice a difference but I sure did.   

You won't be disappointed if you do dyno the bike.   Have done bone stock bikes not just Harley's and it sure brings things to life.  It may not pass a emissions test however but I don't think I am doing that much harm to the environment with the minor changes that I have made. 


There is also the chance if there was a failure and the bike didn't have the correct map in it that a dealer may not cover repairs.  But that's a whole new topic. 

Todd.

[CVO FF]

So there,are benefits from dyno off of Steve's maps?

[johnsachs]

I would follow what "eddfive" says. He IS a very competent/ expert dyno tuner in the Ft. Worth area.  
John

[old_dirt]

So there,are benefits from dyno off of Steve's maps?

Yes, there would be some improvement in power and rideability.  I think Steve sells TTS so that customers can do VE runs.  Those VE runs would take the tune from one-size-fits-all, to one just for your bike.

Here's something most think about but mix things up.  Cars-vs-bikes.  Yes, the cars have ECMs that we are all told will 'dial in' some mods, like a Stage1.  Our Bikes have the most sophisticated ECM found on a bike.  MOCO spent the R&D money on the ECM keeping our bikes air cooled years longer than the competition.  Our bikes use what is called "Speed density" as the type of tuning inside of the ECM...  so do most cars!  Most other bikes use older technology called Alpha-N.  Alpha N uses just throttle position and RPM and uses look up tables to determine the fuel and timing for a given area.  We use those inputs AND a MAP sensor so that our bikes can detect actual engine load, as well as throttle and RPM.

But... here is the difference.  Cars have what we have AND what is called the MAF...  Mass Airflow Sensor.  A MAF heats a wire and the ECM can tell how much air the engine is moving using the MAF by determining how much temperature the heated wire loses.  MAF tells how much air, the engine, as an air pump, is using.  MAF with speed density is whats happening.

Our bikes, without a MAF, have no way to know how much air is moving through the engine.  So we, with our system, have to figure out what the VEs are.  VEs are no more than how much air the engine is using at any given moment.  We have fuel trims, long and short term, to help our bikes ability to adjust.  For arguments sake... lets say these fuel trims can adjust 10%.  That 10% would be the total amount of adjustability, 'swing' it can do with a fuel table.  That is both lean AND rich.  Yes, our ECM will lean out and engine as well as richen the fuel.  So, right away, now we only have 5% of ability to adjust richer.  The closer to the edge of that, the more likely the ECM will loose control of the fuel.

Pipes and exhaust can easily increase the air flow more than that 5% number.   Once that number has been passed, the ECM doesn't have solid control of fuel.  The only way to get the system back to normal operation is to re-map the VEs.  This is the main thrust of most tuning... centering the VEs so that the short and long term trims start off back at center.

Tuning, whether pro or DIY is THE answer for one to gain the best running bike.  It's hard for folks that own one bike and only compare changes with that one bike.  Maybe you CAN feel a boost...  but truth is one has no idea of how much boost can be had, unless tuning has been done.  I have a 120r equipped Ultra.  I bring this up to mention the 'lugging' we are all told to avoid.  Lug a bike slow enough and it will start to buck and sputter.  Everyone thinks lugging is a design flaw in our engines but that is NOT the case at all.   It's the 'tune'.  I can take my 120r, run it at 1600 rpms, and twist the throttle and the bike just leaps ahead.  How many stock bikes will do this?  But...  if a full out tune has been had and the VEs are even adjusted at 1000 rpms and up, the differences in a bike is simply amazing.

Too bad we don't have a MAF.

[deldago]

Just curious, but why wouldn't Harley use a MAF? They have proven themselves in automotive a marine applications for years.

[old_dirt]

I feel it is because of packaging.  Think about what a MAF between the TB and the AC would look like?

[timo482]

owl
I'm no expert - I've been riding harley's since 78 when i got my first new one. i rode all of them a LOT of miles. I blew up the 79- twice, blew up the 84 once. blew up a gold wing, blew up the 2000fltri [cam chain failure]

I've run straight pipes, stock pipes, ridden through the rockys in the rain with no face shield - all kinds of stupid things. used my bike to get girls [worked great when i was 20 - now she just says its too cold out]

but I'm not a expert, what i am is circumspect about performance mods vs longevity. I'm cautious about ruining warranty. I'm a non believer in getting giant tire shredding power from a air cleaner and a pipe. I'm cautious about changing tune - and i don't think ill ever think that turning off 02 sensors is anything but supid. i don't like the "idea" of piggyback add on tuners because they add a point of failure to the electronics, that bugs me.

i spend way too much cash on my bikes - always have - but i want them to last - when parts break i install better parts. I'm very nervous about lifters these days, too many storied of failed lifters - one in the main street press about a woman's buel eating its lifters leaving her with a new case really set in my mind.

plain fact is that stock hd touring head pipes are really pretty good under 4000 rpm, true collector pipes are better but after that its basically 1-noise 2-bling 3-brag. if you want fast get a kaw or a suzuki. making these bikes fast and reliable at the same time - didn't happen in 79, didn't happen with the 84, didn't happen with the 2000 and I'm not going to try with the 2007.

the bikes with the most spectacular failures - often have a long list of power boosting modifications.... uh... the two could go hand in hand.

a few compensators fail - its expensive and a pita. a few lifters fail - its VERY expensive and a pita. but on stone stock bikes they are often very reliable.

to

[owl893]

timo,
seems like you and old_dirt should sit down for a pitcher and chat.  As far as I am concerned you are preaching to the choir, as I've stated in the past I am not particularly interested in more horsepower, just smooth, reliable power and ride-ability. I did try the V&H fuelpac and after a month didn't feel it was performing as advertised so I bought a SEPRT and a dynotune (O2 sensors back on). Noticeable improvement but this is the end of my "performance" mods.

I would add to "noise, bling, and brag" comfort, due to lowered operating temperature. I don't have measured stats, but the V&H setup I installed has made a big difference. 

Finally, in re-reading this entire post, as I understand it, your position on the original question regarding replacing the stock mufflers with RCX slip-ons is ("but on stone stock bikes they are often very reliable") no, he doesn't need to re-map. 

OWL