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[redmtrckl]

  Ok gentlemen, would we not agree that most tuners out there will achieve the proper FAR's give or take. But the magic is in the timing of a FAR within a givin stroke. Most good tuners will tell you that FAR is the easy part but timing is where it at, under the riders load.

   I seen a lot focus on AFR's and people are getting away from timing. Don't get me wrong AFR's can change with the environmental conditions and corrections will benefit. But what changes the most is load on the bike. 250 lbs rider vs 150 lbs rider, running 2 up, loaded for a trip and or hauling azz vs just cruzin. Those are all conditions that FAR's cannot fix and timing is crucial.

   This has been a good thread, so let give Twism_23 some things to look for in a good tuner!!!!    

Hopefully the long awaited Vtune3 will give us that tool 

[hrdtail78]

Steve.
I've gotta ask for a little more education. I thought that the o2s in the '09 SERG were referred to as "wide band" 18mm? would that really be "broad band"??
And are the 18mm o2s good or is there something better out there?

Thank you for the info, as I know that you have the real world knowledge to head us in the right direction.

18mm sensors are just referring to the thread size.  Narrow bands come stock on HD's.  The 12mm lambda's on the 10 and up are also Narrow bands.  The difference is that the 12mm are heated internally and not dependent on exhaust gases to heat them up.  That is why they are placed farther down stream.

The 18mm that are used w/ some aftermarket tuners and that are used with DJ dyno's are broad band sensors.

True wide bands.  Only person or business I have seen bring them up and use them are TTS.  I don't know what SPX uses.  Dynojet doesn't need to.

[Steve Cole]

ALL stock HD sensors are narrow band regardless of year, model or size. That said it all about understanding what you are working with and use it within it's limits whatever they maybe. Most people do not know and there in lies the issues. We use ALL types of O2 sensors here but understand what we are getting with each one. Since COST is a big factor most will not step up and get the quality sensor and system.

http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?5220

Get's you a low end lab quality O2 system. This is far better than any currently used aftermarket kit being used.

Here is what was/is used at HD for road testing

http://www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?lpro

Again much better than any of the current aftermarket systems being sold and used today on HD's.

It's been pointed out that AFR is only part of it and that is true but there is also much more than just timing too. It's a system approach and if your not willing to spend the time to learn, then use, ALL the parts of the system you will never get it. This is where I feel the DIY guy is willing to spend time that others maynot. Don't get me wrong, there are some great tuners out there but there are also a lot that aren't so good. There is NO AUTO Tune. While we have gotten it much closer with our products it still requires and operator to run and understand the tools we provide.

I DONOT want you guys to focus only on one thing yet I do want you to learn and understand the equipment used DOES play into what your seeing. The dynosheet that shows a few lines on it when used correctly is a great help but when it's turned into bragging right many have figured out ways to cheat the system and make thing look better or worse. When I get calls of my bike runs and rides great, much better than before but when I went to the dyno it shows less than before........... what's up? Its hard to explain to the customer to not worry about the piece of paper as it only shows what happens at WOT and most people do not ride there very often. What your feeling is all the things that sheet of paper does not show you.

[Twism_23]

I finally think I made my mind up and am going to give the tuner @ HD a shot with my SEPST. I'm heading down to Bradenton,FL the 1st week of April with a couple buddies may see if I can find someone there if I'm not happy with the tune. Thanks for all the great advice.

[Steve Cole]

You might want to look up Doc's in the Orlando area. One of the best tuners there is, if you going to be anywhere close to him in Fl.

[Twism_23]

Thanks

[mayor]

I think you have misread or misunderstood what the chart above is showing you. What you are seeing is the output from the Bosch sensor when it is reading a fixed test gas value at 13.23. Bosch supplies the correction requirements necessary to make the sensor reading correct but none of the current aftermarket systems use them, including the autotune pro. So when you think it's correcting to a fix mixture it cannot. The output from the sensor must be read along with the pressure the sensor is under (exhaust pressure), altitude and sensor temperature. The range of where your really at is what the chart shows you. Without knowing those corrections all one can do is guess that your somewhere within the range on the chart above. If you go to the ends of the chart the possible range @ 13.223 is really 12.866 to 13.585 AFR or 0.719 AFR error range. If that's good enough for you, then so be it

can you help us layman understand what your chart is showing based on how it applies to HD engines? like, in a naturally aspirated HD engine how much pressure is the sensor mounted in the exhaust under?  how much pressure would that same sensor be under if the sample was pulled through a smaller sample hole prior to reaching the broad band sensor?

I'm biased towards the use of broad bands, mainly due to the notion that some data is better than no data, but I also don't think that range over the full pressure variance posted is overly alarming since these chromed up tractor engines will produce roughly the same power over a range of 12.8-13.8 afr.  The range you state looks like a very wide range when written that way, but in reality it is roughly the target value +/- .360.  With this in mind, targeting around 13.2 seems to place both extremes in the safe power range.  This also is based on the exhaust pressure ranging from .5-2.0 bar, which is a range that I suspect that most average naturally aspirated engines would not have.  

[Steve Cole]

In simple terms it proves the Broad Band sensor, used as it is today, is NO better than reading the stock Narrow Band sensors. Funny how I've been telling people this for years and you have been part of the discussions in the past, so your well aware of what I've said.  While I did state the range was about 1 AFR error and the chart clearly shows 0.72 AFR you need to remember the temperature error is not shown on the chart. There is no more accuracy using the Broad Band than what you already have on the bikes after 2007 to start with.  I have said it time and time again it is NOT a Bosch sensor issue, it is the aftermarket manufactures NOT following the datasheet as specified by Bosch.

As for the range of the chart you feel you need to watch, it all boils down to where the bike is going to be ridden. That would let you select the altitude correction lines on the chart your going to travel and the exhaust pressure variations follow the altitude and type exhaust system being used. Each  one has to be measured to truely know but for those of us that live out west it is a normal ride,, to travel from sea level to 8000 ft, during a Saturday ride!

Edit: You also have to understand that the pressure measurements are Absolute pressure which means you have to include altitude in the measurement. So just in terms of Altitude the pressure can and does change from about 0.8 - 1.05 plus minus whatever the engine and exhaust adds!

[hrdtail78]

can you help us layman understand what your chart is showing based on how it applies to HD engines? like, in a naturally aspirated HD engine how much pressure is the sensor mounted in the exhaust under?  how much pressure would that same sensor be under if the sample was pulled through a smaller sample hole prior to reaching the broad band sensor?

It's easier for me to understand the chart if I convert Bars into PSI.  1 bar = 14.5 psi, 1.2 = 17.4. This would mean that 2.9 psi would be seen above atmosphere.  Playing around with a manometer in the exhaust to help tune ST w/ disc.  I found best balance of power around 2.5 psi.  When choking down the exhaust for tq rise, it is not uncommon to 4-5 psi.  Low throttle openings and low rpm was worthless data.  Things jumped around to much.  But .8 = 11.6 which is 2.89psi less than 14.5.  This is all based on common day at sea level and only one point of the chart.  You have seen my video of the rag in the free flowing exhaust.  What is the PSI swing to have that happen?

Yes, I agree with you on your finding of 100% throttle.  What about 7%-15% throttle wear we are targeting 14.2.  Same school of thought that say NB are junk because of the swing are also dealing with the same tolerance with BB.  The HD Delphi is only so accurate.  TS has put a 5% label on it.  For argument sake.  I will use 5%.  The tuning system that can take that down to 3% would be better.  How can this happen?  HD isn't going to put any better sensors on.  We are limited with what we have.  Next logical step would seem to be resolution of the sensor or the frequency we can see that data or the ECM can use that data.  I don't know if it is possible to speed up the ECM's reaction time to rich/ lean, but it seems that speeding up the data we see is possible, because it has gotten faster.

[mayor]

In simple terms it proves the Broad Band sensor, used as it is today, is NO better than reading the stock Narrow Band sensors.

How exactly does this prove that?  That broad bands are no better than narrow bands? You have often posted that the broad bands come with in accuracies, but where is the data to support the narrow band equivalency statement?

 I know based on the testing I have done comparing lambda based narrow band calculated ve cells in heavier load ranges to those same cells being measured by broad band sensors, the reported values from the broad bands were outside the range that you suggested as the accuracy of the broad bands.  I also know that when moving the ve table values based on the broad band readings the torque line reacted favorably.  This leads me to believe that the broad band readings are better than narrow band readings in the heavier load cells. 

This isn’t a cut on using stock narrow bands. I have no issues with using narrow band sensors in some light load and cruise ranges, but I prefer broad band sensors at richer settings for heavier load areas.   I think that narrow bands should be used in any areas that will be running in closed loop. 

Funny how I've been telling people this for years and you have been part of the discussions in the past, so your well aware of what I've said.  While I did state the range was about 1 AFR error and the chart clearly shows 0.72 AFR you need to remember the temperature error is not shown on the chart.

I’m aware, but you and I seem to always disagree on what the data means.    I’m not at all alarmed by the potential for pressure and temperature error.  Perhaps the target value and natural allowable margin of error of the target afr plays into my favor, which is why I haven’t seen the negative accuracy results of using broad bands.  I really wish you would develop a scalable analog input into the Data Master program to incorporate broad bands into your system.  To me, if you did that your system would eliminate the need to use a secondary data collection and software option.  I see this as a huge potential for you. 

[Steve Cole]

It's easier for me to understand the chart if I convert Bars into PSI.  1 bar = 14.5 psi, 1.2 = 17.4. This would mean that 2.9 psi would be seen above atmosphere.  Playing around with a manometer in the exhaust to help tune ST w/ disc.  I found best balance of power around 2.5 psi.  When choking down the exhaust for tq rise, it is not uncommon to 4-5 psi.  Low throttle openings and low rpm was worthless data.  Things jumped around to much.  But .8 = 11.6 which is 2.89psi less than 14.5.  This is all based on common day at sea level and only one point of the chart.  You have seen my video of the rag in the free flowing exhaust.  What is the PSI swing to have that happen?

Remember that this is Absolute pressure were working with, so 1 bar is sea level normal pressure.

Yes, I agree with you on your finding of 100% throttle.  What about 7%-15% throttle wear we are targeting 14.2.  Same school of thought that say NB are junk because of the swing are also dealing with the same tolerance with BB.  The HD Delphi is only so accurate.  TS has put a 5% label on it.  For argument sake.  I will use 5%.  The tuning system that can take that down to 3% would be better.  How can this happen?  HD isn't going to put any better sensors on.  We are limited with what we have.  Next logical step would seem to be resolution of the sensor or the frequency we can see that data or the ECM can use that data.  I don't know if it is possible to speed up the ECM's reaction time to rich/ lean, but it seems that speeding up the data we see is possible, because it has gotten faster.

Here are a few Altitude point conversions for you guys.

0            1.013 bar
1000       0.977
2000       0.942
3000       0.908
4000       0.875
5000       0.843
6000       0.811
7000       0.781
8000       0.752
9000       0.724
10000      0.697


So as you can see the absolute pressure changes as you ride up and down in altitude and you need to add what goes on in the exhaust to the base number depending on what altitude your at. So when looking for a range to be at on the chart one must use all the information to determine where that might be. I have measured pressure swings in the exhaust pipe (with a typical pressure gauge) of a HD of +/- 4 psi  on a fairly open type exhaust and ones more like a stock exhaust with cat at +/- 8 psi. So the question has to be asked when the sensor reading was taken was it + 8 psi or - 8 psi? This is not rocket science here it's basic stuff that one needs to follow or at least learn to understand what's going on. Jason has it right that it jumps all over the place and you need to get a sensor to measure the pressure swings that is quick enough in response time to see it properly.


Anyone that want to disagree with the data can argue all they want but the data is the data weather you like it or not. If you cannot get you ideas to match the data then you need to go back and start over as the data doesn't change!

Mayor

I am unaware of anyone that is supplying a system today that really measures narrow bands at heavy loads for tuning at this time, the ones I have tested all extend or project the data as the HD ECM has all or part of the correction terms turned off under those conditions, so I cannot see how you can make the claims your trying to make.

[hrdtail78]

.............  When choking down the exhaust for tq rise, it is not uncommon to 4-5 psi.  Low throttle openings and low rpm was worthless data.  Things jumped around to much.  But .8 = 11.6 which is 2.89psi less than 14.5.  This is all based on common day at sea level and only one point of the chart.  You have seen my video of the rag in the free flowing exhaust.  What is the PSI swing to have that happen?

It was there.   

[mayor]

Steve, I'm referring to vtuned (TTS) or basic tuned (Power Vision) narrow band tunes in the 75-80+ kPa and extended cells in lambda based calibrations.  I've not seen one yet that hasn't read lean, and the lean values ate usually in excess of what you state as the accuracy of the broad bands.  This means that even at the worst case scenario regarding the accuracy of the broad bands, they still are a better option in some areas than narrow bands.

[Steve Cole]

So what your talking about is extend or projected values NOT measured, one needs to be clear on that! It at least in our product is clearly called and extended value as that is how it is arrived at, the other guys I cannot say. So you really have no idea what a measure Narrow Band sensor will do under those conditions. Here is the plot for them at there test point.

[Steve Cole]

It was there.   

I know you said it, but felt there are plenty of others that clearly do not understand, so I just want to point it out and used your post just for that. It seems to me that all the people tuning would already have done some measuring as you've done to know about it already but I have found that NOT to be the case. My hope is that people learn from this discussion and follow with doing some reading and testing to learn.