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[FlaHeatWave]

For most of the pipe suppliers it's make it fit(at least close), make it look pretty, make it loud, then sell it, or copy what someone else did because it's selling well. Reverse engineering does not enter into it. There are a few exceptions that really spend some time to make it right but not most, which is sad.

   I'd go a step or two further.  I'm convinced that many of the pipe benders out there don't actually have any real engineering expertise in the first place.  They may employ tooling and industrial engineers to set up production lines, but real experts on flow and exhaust dynamics are probably pretty rare.  They don't have to do all that much to satisfy their target consumers; all the pipes have to do is look cool and make a lot of noise as you noted above.  The actual performance increases are nebulous at best, since we don't get any independent test results to back up the advertising claims.  Some of the shorty crap sold for Softails actually reduces performance, but when the real objective of the customer is to just look cool and make noise they rarely realize they've gone backwards in terms of performance.

Jerry

That's amazing to me! One would think that consulting with the Steves of our world regarding 02 sensor placement would be a no brainer...
 

[Steve Cole]

Then you would be surprised at some of the responses I've gotten from major exhaust suppliers, they flat said they didn't care.

[Hilly13]

Makes a lot of difference to tune stability after you get the 02 sensor placements and depth correct when your running closed loop, and it amazes me that tunes are made with poor placement to begin with, how on earth can the tune be expected to be any good with erroneous readings! I get that with stock mufflers there is some hope the sensor's will read close but who has stock mufflers? Add a bit of headwork and cams then the placement is even more important, its a lesson I have learnt through experience with guidance from Steve, garbage in garbage out as the truism goes.

[06cuse]

Alright let me upset the applecart right now ~ do most of my posting on the Roadglide Forum ~ 30 HD's in multiple years & configurations.  However, since 06 ` FLHTCUSE, FLHTK, 12 CVO FLTRXSE.  So two 103's and a built 113.  Miles 93 on the 06, 73, on the 10 47 on the 12.  All accomplished with PCV & Autotune...  Currently a Built 113, hurricane heads reworked, and TW408-6 cams, 58mm TB and not sure how large the injectors are...  Bottom line ~ my bike runs great ~ Has never been on a dyno ~ pulled plugs yesterday and they were perfect....  I ride, hard and fast ~ Closed loop works with WideBand o2 sensors IMO.  With narrow band I am the first to tell ya ~ I don't even run lean within those parameters.  The PCV and AT is behind the ecm  ~ does it work ~ well obviously there are those that claim that it does not.  I think it does and have 200k on three bikes since 06 to stand by it.  Running components nowhere near stock my Widebands are sniffing ~ if you've had a bike dyno'd what is the tech hangin in your tailpipe?  Yep ~ that would be a Wideband 02 sensor..... So if I am running one off of each head I think I can really fine tune the beast.  The SERT is trash IMO (yes one came with my Stage III when I bought the bike, tuning with narrow band when the dyno tech use wideband, what is the point.  I may not be as educated as many of you but I ride, and really have not run into many that ride more than me (i'm thankful to do the miles I do).  Not braggin just sayin my bike in current configuration has never been dyno'd, there is nothing remotely close to stock except the cases (which have been timkened), and the jugs (bored to a 113) after an unfortunate front rod bearing failure at 16k.  So my point.  After building a bike that really rolls (not a torque monster compared to an S&S 124) but big horsepower.  I have not dyno'd, bike runs great in Florida, or the mountains of Utah, or the mountains of NC.  All this with heads that really flow, cams that roll smoothly, big injectors, 58mm TB.  So the bottom line ~ I'm sure a dyno guy using Wideband o2 sensors (hung in the tailpipe), and a flash tuner (sert, TTS, TechnoResearch, etc).  Can squeak a couple of more lb's of tq and a couple of more Hp out of it after four or five hours of abuse.....  I ride mine almost daily ~ and guess what ~ plugs look great ~ and based on the 120r numbers I've seen your feelings may be hurt by my little 113.  Not off the line, but where I ride 70+..... How is the possible ~ Wideband o2 sensors, pcv & at behind the ecm..... Not sure how it works  ~ just magic in my book ~ So for my money ~ I have run the same set up on three bikes for 200k, I'm ok with autotune utilizing wideband o2's.  I cannot speak to thundermax since I have not run it.   PS when I bought the Stage III'd 110 from the dealer (his demo) 495 miles, sert and 99hp 106ft lbs of tq ~ lasted a whole 16k before the front rod bearing made more noise than my exhaust.