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[ultrafxr]

Saw this on Performance TV the other day:  RC - Xcelerator from RC Components.  They make some nice exhaust systems and other things our bikes but I think this is a new product.  Anyone know anything about it?

http://www.rccomponents.com/rcxhaust/products/rcx-celerator.htm

[ultrafxr]

Found the installation instructions on their web site (08-13 touring models attached).  You have to cut back the protective sheathing from the Data Link connector and then use a T-tap to connect a wire from the device to it.  Don't like tapping into factory wiring harness but a posi-tap would be better I think.  And if you removed the unit before taking it in for warranty work there would still be evidence with the sheathing cut back and with even if T-tap was removed there would be a break in the wire.

And while no other cutting / tapping of factory wires is involved the device plugs in to several sensors:  O2, CPS, TPS.

Perhaps I am just pessimistic but I see the potential for lots of problems what with all these connections and wires that can be crimped, abraded, come loose, etc.

[FlaHeatWave]

No way that I am cutting into the ECM harness, especially on a touring bike.

I would be curious to hear what Steve has to say on this?

[ultrafxr]

No way that I am cutting into the ECM harness, especially on a touring bike.

I would be curious to hear what Steve has to say on this?

I hear you.  Nor will I.  Not knowledgeable about other piggyback type tuners and maybe they also require tapping into the bike's harness.  

[old_dirt]

I hear you.  Nor will I.  Not knowledgeable about other piggyback type tuners and maybe they also require tapping into the bike's harness.  

Better piggy back devices like Power Commanders, will come with matching plugs to plug one end into the harness and the other end into the ECM.  This is the best way to do this, IMHO.  Cutting MY, or a customers, harness?  No way Jose!

And...  IMHO, again, I do NOT feel an add on box should ever be installed on any bike newer than an 10 touring anyways.  Add ons were from a time long past when dinosaurs roamed the earth and flash tuners were just a blink in the sky....  Do you still use Win95?  Same thing... there is better tech out there than crap that fools an ECU into thinking there are things going on that, in fact, are not.  Add ons like PCs were fine up to say about 06.  Once we had the O2 sensors and upgraded ECUs... why go backwards and lose the ability to tune so many things?  Most riders will normally NOT use most of the adjustments inside of a flash tuner, but... when they ARE needed?  Sure is nice that they are there.  ANd then, here... is a 'box' that one cannot even adjust?  Gimme a break!

We ALL adjust VEs anymore, Pro or DIY.  No news there.  But... I would be LOATH to give up having the AE adjustable.  A LOT of problems come with folks having, or the base maps having, too much AE.  Stumbles, surges, etc are just about all related to AE and timing.  And even that one all the time used adjustment is NOT available with an add on type box, let alone off of the other things one can adjust, if need be.  I have NEVER done a tune up without adjusting AE one way or another.

I can readily remember starting out in 08 with a PC3 on my bike.  I went from that, and guessing at the setting, to riding my bike down the road with two laptops, a monitor, a vacuum pump strapped to the passenger board and a set of wide bands AND narrow bands all reporting back, to now..  I have a dyno and it IS a blast.

I can remember viewing things from the OPs perspective, and all that I have learned from that point has convinced me of one thing...  if the bike came with O2 sensors from the factory, then spend a couple hundred more and do NOT get any sort of add on box... get a flash tuner instead.

Here is the 'deal' on tuning our bikes... most uninformed guys think of tuning bikes as similar to tuning a car.  Some add ons work decently for cars, too BTW!

Our bikes do NOT come with a MAF sensor.  Mass AirFlow.  Cars KNOW how much air is entering their engines, via that MAF sensor, and can easily adjust.  Our bikes use the same tuning scheme, Speed Density, but we HAVE to rely upon tables set inside of the ECM.. and... this is what a flash tuner is all about.

OP?  save up for a TTS, a SEPST or a PV.  Later on, especially once you learn a little.... you WILL be SO glad that you did.

If I could... I would give this a 'like'--- No problem is so small it cannot be misunderstood..

[Steve Cole]

No way that I am cutting into the ECM harness, especially on a touring bike.

I would be curious to hear what Steve has to say on this?

Same as always, AutoTune my a$$. The factory system has limits and it's easy to get to those limits, so what then? The add-on device looks at a few sensors and from what I could see in this case the Crank Position, TPS and O2 sensors. So let's see what they could possibly do. They could alter the CPS signal which would allow for the timing to be modified, They could modify the TPS signal which only allows them to modify the position the ECM thinks the throttle is at, and finally modify the O2 signal. Since the ECM has a limited adjustment that comes from the O2 signal you can only get what the ECM will allow.

So what this means is you going to get an O2 signal modifier, a TPS modifier and timing modifier. What about when the ECM is run in Open loop? The O2's are not used, so that does no good. A TPS fooler can tell the ECM your at 50% throttle when your only at 25% so it will feel better but you can do the same by twisting the throttle! What happens at 100% the fooler cannot do anything then, as it's already at its limit. So your left with something that may modify the timing some but if it cause the system to ping the ECM yanks it right back out. Since the Knock system is used for protection it yanks more out to stop pinging then it slowly adds it back. If it continues to ping the system will learn it and just keep it out all the time. Now what did you really gain other than a lighter wallet and a warm and fussy feeling that it felt like more because every time you twisted the throttle you only went to 25% but the ECM thought you went to 50%.

[ultrafxr]

OP here.  I am not advocating this - just thought it interesting.  Years ago I had a PC on my '99 Ultra and after a couple years it failed.  In all fairness to PC it was due to a chaffed wire but hey that's always a possibility with add on devices, just sayin'.  Anyway when it came time to tune my '07 I had the dealer do it with a SERT.  And when the moco changed vendors I had my SERT interface upgraded by TTS and never looked back.  My bike runs great - strong and cool.  Never, ever pings, spits or stumbles.  For me TTS is the only way to go.   

[andrew pasquale]

I have an 05 CVO Flhtce and will be upgrading cams and tensioners. I would be very interested in an Auto tune ,Any suggestions?

[05Train]

I have an 05 CVO Flhtce and will be upgrading cams and tensioners. I would be very interested in an Auto tune ,Any suggestions?

With an '05 you can add O2 sensors and run any of the flash tuners (PV, TTS, SEPST).  It's worth the extra $120 or so.

[FlaHeatWave]

Same as always, AutoTune my a$$. The factory system has limits and it's easy to get to those limits, so what then? The add-on device looks at a few sensors and from what I could see in this case the Crank Position, TPS and O2 sensors. So let's see what they could possibly do. They could alter the CPS signal which would allow for the timing to be modified, They could modify the TPS signal which only allows them to modify the position the ECM thinks the throttle is at, and finally modify the O2 signal. Since the ECM has a limited adjustment that comes from the O2 signal you can only get what the ECM will allow.

So what this means is you going to get an O2 signal modifier, a TPS modifier and timing modifier. What about when the ECM is run in Open loop? The O2's are not used, so that does no good. A TPS fooler can tell the ECM your at 50% throttle when your only at 25% so it will feel better but you can do the same by twisting the throttle! What happens at 100% the fooler cannot do anything then, as it's already at its limit. So your left with something that may modify the timing some but if it cause the system to ping the ECM yanks it right back out. Since the Knock system is used for protection it yanks more out to stop pinging then it slowly adds it back. If it continues to ping the system will learn it and just keep it out all the time. Now what did you really gain other than a lighter wallet and a warm and fussy feeling that it felt like more because every time you twisted the throttle you only went to 25% but the ECM thought you went to 50%.

Steve,
'Am sincerely thankful for your reply. 'Was going to ask you some of these questions in RoadDawgs thread about the pipes, but didn't want to hijack.

'Am a big fan of closed loop, as it is seems to work well in the ZO6 Vette.

What changes or evolution in present technology (if at all possible?) is required to allow the modern (modded) HDs to run their best, allowing for varying conditions? Are MAF / true liquid cooling some of the answers?

Is it possible (or even desirable) for our HDs to run in constant closed loop?

Could a flash type tuner set the targets, and the ECM / sensors adjust in real time to accommodate varying conditions?

Contrary to what some may think, I don't have "AutoTune" tattooed on my a$$ LOL! 'Just a layman looking for a solution that fits my needs ~ A long distance Sport Touring Bike, based in Florida, that travels across the Continent and back.

Thanks,
Ed       

[Steve Cole]

See answers below

Steve,
'Am sincerely thankful for your reply. 'Was going to ask you some of these questions in RoadDawgs thread about the pipes, but didn't want to hijack.

'Am a big fan of closed loop, as it is seems to work well in the ZO6 Vette.

What changes or evolution in present technology (if at all possible?) is required to allow the modern (modded) HDs to run their best, allowing for varying conditions? Are MAF / true liquid cooling some of the answers?

MAF needs to have a steady flow for them to work correctly. The issue is 99% of the MAF out there do not measure airflow at low speeds very well and cannot measure direction of air flow. This is why car engine have a large intake volume between the heads and the MAF. No room to make that happen on a HD today. Liquid cooling done properly will help but the bandaid HD has done kind of sucks. Looking at the head the volume of water is tiny and follow the path shows more issues.

Is it possible (or even desirable) for our HDs to run in constant closed loop?

I'm a big fan of Closed Loop and it works great when not screwed up by piss poor pipe design and O2 placement.

Could a flash type tuner set the targets, and the ECM / sensors adjust in real time to accommodate varying conditions?

Not today but never say never.

Contrary to what some may think, I don't have "AutoTune" tattooed on my a$$ LOL! 'Just a layman looking for a solution that fits my needs ~ A long distance Sport Touring Bike, based in Florida, that travels across the Continent and back.

Thanks,
Ed       

[FlaHeatWave]

We are very fortunate to have Steve as a resource (that is willing to share) here, as he is The "Godfather of Tuning" of our modern day Harleys. I say that with all respect, as Steve Cole has pioneered, and continues to develop, the technology that we all enjoy today!

Steve's insight makes one really appreciate the confines that the Tuners have to deal with regarding  Harley's "legacy architecture "

The Water Heads are a step in the right direction, The MoCo really has to deal with legacy architecture...

One last question,
"I'm a big fan of Closed Loop and it works great when not screwed up by piss poor pipe design and O2 placement"
Do size constraints apply to this, the same way that you explained about the MAF / intake length? Are the pipe manufacturers not reverse engineering to accommodate this?

Thanks again,
Ed

[Steve Cole]

For most of the pipe suppliers it's make it fit(at least close), make it look pretty, make it loud, then sell it, or copy what someone else did because it's selling well. Reverse engineering does not enter into it. There are a few exceptions that really spend some time to make it right but not most, which is sad.

[grc]

For most of the pipe suppliers it's make it fit(at least close), make it look pretty, make it loud, then sell it, or copy what someone else did because it's selling well. Reverse engineering does not enter into it. There are a few exceptions that really spend some time to make it right but not most, which is sad.

    I'd go a step or two further.  I'm convinced that many of the pipe benders out there don't actually have any real engineering expertise in the first place.  They may employ tooling and industrial engineers to set up production lines, but real experts on flow and exhaust dynamics are probably pretty rare.  They don't have to do all that much to satisfy their target consumers; all the pipes have to do is look cool and make a lot of noise as you noted above.  The actual performance increases are nebulous at best, since we don't get any independent test results to back up the advertising claims.  Some of the shorty crap sold for Softails actually reduces performance, but when the real objective of the customer is to just look cool and make noise they rarely realize they've gone backwards in terms of performance.

Jerry

[05Train]

Doesn't take but a minute or two to see half a dozen threads on VTF and HDF about pipes/slip ons, and most of them are all about the sound.  Performance be damned, look at me!