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[lilcoot]

Sorry, folks, but I have another oil question 

It has nothing to do with which brand is better or the voodoo properties of additives.  I use Mobil 1 full synth in the crank case because it's available at all of the local auto parts stores, has an excellent reputation, and is the same or less $ than other synthetics. 

The brutal SoCal summer is upon us, and I've heard varying opinions regarding use of 60 vs 20-50 oils in the heat.  Some say use just 60wt oil in the summer in the crankcase, and some say mix the 20-50 and 60.  Others say it doesn't matter, just use 20-50.

Changing my fluids, and am wondering if I should use 60 wt during the summer? 

Thanks for your help!

[2k]

I use 20w50 year-round. Thats the whole point of using multi-viscosity......right?

[grc]

Check your manual and you will find that the folks who make your engine have a chart that shows what oils they recommend for various ambient temperatures.  Harley does in fact show it's acceptable to run 60 wt. oil when the temperatures remain above a certain temperature.  I believe they say you can use 60 wt when temps remain above 80°F, but cold start performance will be very poor if temps drop to 50 or below.

What brand of 60 wt. oil were you thinking about running?  I'm not aware of many choices in motorcycle specific oils that would be as easy to find as the Mobil 1 V-Twin you're currently running.  I definitely would not give up the advantages of synthetic and go to a dino 60 wt.   As for mixing 20w50 and straight 60, the short answer is NO.

Btw, there is a 20w60 available from Redline, but it's not readily available everywhere like the Mobil 1 you're using now.

Jerry

[CVO2FIXUP]

 I just have a additional comment regarding the oil.  My bike was on brake in dino oil for a 1000km   Now switched to Emzoil 20-50 full synthetic.  What I find is that the engine is more noisy with the synthetic. Not like the stock 110 noisy but definitely louder then when the dino oil was in there.  So, the question is.  WHY!!! Cheers. 

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

The lifter is losing it's ability to stay pumped up with the thin synthetic oil.............and if it was a paper-gasketed engine, there would be signs of weepage/seepage usually.
Scott

[CVO2FIXUP]

 I would like to switch back to the quiet dino oil, however want the extra protection of the synthetic. Or do they protect the same, and you just have to change the dino oil more frequently?  And how about a more thick synthetic. Will that balance things out?

  Sorry to hijack this thread guy's. But my mind is racing over here.

[grc]

Words like "thinner" and "thicker" don't mean a whole hell of a lot, that's why we have industry standards for things like lubricating oils.  Synthetics are not inherently "thinner" than dino oils, regardless of the wives tales from the last century.  The truth is that synthetics naturally have higher viscosity indexes than dino oils, and dino oils typically require large doses of viscosity enhancer additives to reach VI levels approaching those of the typical synthetic.  And the SAE grading system for motor oils is based on real viscosity testing that doesn't change depending on the type of oil being tested.  In other words, a full syn oil that tests out as a SAE 50 grade falls within the same viscosity range as a dino oil that also tests out as a SAE 50. 

I'd love to see a true scientific study comparing a full syn SAE 50 to a dino SAE 50 in terms of sound damping qualities, lifter leakdown performance, etc., but so far I haven't been able to find such a thing.  If anyone has a link to a real study, as opposed to more opinions based on nothing more than thin air, I'd appreciate it if they would post a link to it.  There may in fact be some slight difference in a Harley engine (or not), but all I've seen or heard so far from anyone is unsubstantiated opinion.  Opinion isn't the same thing as proven fact.  One "fact" I do know is that people can convince themselves of all sorts of things.  You say the engine is noisier after changing from the dino oil to the synthetic.  How did you measure that noise level, did you do an instrumented test right before and again right after the oil change?  Or did you just go for a ride or two and tell yourself the engine sounds a bit noisier?  Did you factor in to your results the thought that the engine was a bit tighter right after the overhaul, but less so after running it for 1000 km?  Could the noise level have been slightly increasing as you broke it in even before you changed the oil?  That's been my experience with new vehicles, especially Harley's, even though the same oil was used from day one.

My point is that without instrumented testing under controlled conditions, people can say anything they want that fits their agenda and then everything quickly turns into a meaningless back and forth of unsubstantiated opinion often based on nothing more than "I read it on the internet".

Here's an idea for you.  If you really believe this "thinner" story, get yourself four quarts of SAE 60 full synthetic and try that.  Amsoil sells one, and Redline sells a 20w60 as well if you have cold start concerns running a straight SAE 60.

Jerry

[CVO2FIXUP]

  I hear you regarding off the cuff assessment of engine noise.  What I did notice as soon as I switched oils was allot more "ticking" at Idle after warm up!!  The noise is about the same through out the rpm range, but significantly worse at idle. I found that to be strange.

  Now how much more engine wear protection do you get with synthetic oil VS dino? 

[harleyguynv]

I can tell you that my 07 SEUC has less valve train noise w/ Dino oil in it (hot or cold engine). It is very obvious with what I hear. I first noticed it when I switched from 20/50 synthetic (Mobil 1 or Amsoil, used both) to 20/50 Valvoline. When I switched back to the 20/50 Mobil 1 I immediately could hear more noise. I changed the lifters at 20,000 miles to S&S Premiums from the stock Harley lifters and preloaded them to the Scot's specs. (I already had adjustable pushrods). I did notice the lifters were a little less noisy with the S&S's but not buy much. Still happy I change the lifters to prevent any issues. This last week I put in 60w Maxima Classic Big Twin (Dino) and there is MUCH less noise from the valve train than the 20/50 Mobil 1 synthetic I ran for the winter hear in Las Vegas. I also noticed an increase in oil pressure (hot and cold engine) which would make sense running straight 60 wt. I do change the oil 2000-3000 miles when I'm running the Dino. I probably don't have to change it so soon but I do it myself and it gives me piece of mind. I am not knocking Synthetic oil at all. I was running Synthetic in my 1998 and 2002 Heritages when it was not cool to use synthetic. I just wanted to see for myself if the Dino oil is less noisy in the 110's. I have my answer without a doubt.

[lilcoot]

Jerry, just curious as to why it's a bad idea to mix oils of different viscosities?  As long as there aren't any additives that are incompatible,  why wouldn't mixing Amsoil 20w50 with Amsoil 60 wt give better cold start protection and better high temp protection than just one or the other?  I'm not asking to be a noodge, but it seems based on common sense that would be the case.  I'm sure it's not that simple.

I don't know what, if any, effect oils have on noise.  I think my imagination creates a lot of those noises.  Personally, I hear different noises all the time, especially on my last bike.  Sometimes a chirp, sometimes knocks, always top end ticking.  Maybe Harleys need exorcists, not mechanics! 

A "performance" guy told me that he runs nothing but 60 wt oil in the summer in his Harleys, so I was curious to hear people's opinions and experiences.  Sounds like just another opinion to me.

[grc]

The reason I don't recommend mixing different oils has to do with compatibility issues that can arise.  The additive packages in oils are not standardized, and each company has their own proprietary packages.  Furthermore, even within the same brand the additive packages are not necessarily the same.  One case in point is Mobil 1, which has a totally different package for the V-Twin product from what they use in the automotive products.  Why take a chance on screwing something up when there is no valid reason for doing so?  If you want a higher viscosity but still maintain cold cranking performance, just go with a 20w60 that was designed by a qualified chemist/engineer at the oil company.  They know a lot more about it than the rest of us. 

Jerry

[lilcoot]

Thanks, Jerry.  I understand the compatibility issues, just wondered if there was anything else.  If one is careful to properly warm up before riding, using 60 wt oil wouldn't cause any harm, at least.

I guess the question I needed to ask originally, then, should have been "Does using 60 wt oils in hotter areas provide any measurable protection vs 20w50 in real world use?"

I'm guessing it wouldn't make a noticeable difference in the real world, or HD would make it mandatory for warranty coverage.  Come to think of it, when's the last time somebody posted here with a catastrophic heat related failure that wasn't caused by something else, like loss of oil pressure?  If we were frequently hearing about expensive problems caused by excess heat (besides comfort issues), like we do with low quality compensators, cranks, and lifters, it might be worthwhile to try something.

Kinda like the motto "If it ain't broke, fix it until it is".

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

I'm no oil expert, only sharing raw, hands-on, no-pony-in-the-race info from working on these engines day in, day out, for almost 30 years now.
Not at all anti-syn, but how in hell did an engine ever survive prior to synthetics?? They did just fine, is the answer.
That said, Red Line offers both straight 50W, and 60W synthetics, that we shelve here, for those that want it, along with several dino Spectro oils(for almost 15 years now)that just now S&S also has private-labled for them. That's odd.........?
Scott

[LC110]

There are 25w60 oils that are also available and my be a little less likely to have viscosity breakdown. (base oil degradation)
The only 20w60 oil I have seen tested that does not break down to a 50 weight after 1000 miles or less is Red Line.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Syn's protect, yes, but can/do loose the ability to maintain lifter hydrology in the HD low-pressure/high volume oil system at full operating temps, again, from what we've seen.
Scott