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[Rupert]

Hi ,
I'm Rupert. Im from Maryland, via Maine. I bought a2008 CVO RK in feb. It has diamond cut heads( im tellin you this so you know the engine was apart before I bought it)  and only 2500 miles on it.  Stage one , rhnhart true duals. I put another 2500 miles on it. the starter has been noisey, but functioned "fine " so I was not overly concerned. I have a 06 springer and a old 87 softail, and I this is my first touring bike/ 110 so I fugures it was normal. It would sputter and occasionally stall but got better when HD replaced the  TPS and flashed the correct  tune under a since expiered warranty.  I was aware of some potential issues with the ACR, and possible problems with the comp but had no indication of anthing wrong. 
SO I found oil dripping from the corner of the primary. Harley stealership used 3 in 1 so IDK which fluid it is, tranny or primary,so its 5k miles and I change fluids, put redline in the tranny. oil is dark= primary. I suspect inner primary seal, but it only leaks after a run, showin the next day on the floor. So I jack it up and its the starter....I take it to the shop to have a thundermax installed and check on the leak. Its the starter, it was installed without dowel pins,,,,( first warning), and with alot of black RTV ( second warnng) which  caused the leak . SO we flash the thundermax  and go to fire it up and BANG, starter hits drive gear. ouch. try it agian and its ok. I order new starter, thinkng it will last awhile, it lasts three days and fails in my driveway.  So I replace the starter and engage it with the primary open and no spark plugs. test sat. button it up and its grinding and kicking back and all theugly bad noises. I push start it in my driveway and take it to the shop. I notice its pinging at part throttle. Im sure its the compensator that is the root problem. They replace the comp, which requires a new rotor. discover chain ( 5k mile son it)  is shot, all stiff with cracked rollers. (im thinkng the ping was caused buy excessive load on the engien caused by the binding chain and compensator. Somethign went threw the primary, I suspect  peices of a starter or two. the stator had lots of metel on it as well.  I hand filed and stoned the teeth on the clutch hub, decided to not replece it. It fires up all nice with the primary open . Robby, my mechanic,  buttons it up and test drives it, no ping runs great, BUT when he gets back to the shop it wont restart. starter engages but wont turn over. lt sat , without  tender over the weekend and it fires right up. starter voltage drop = as low as 8.8 - 9.2, Only geting 14.15, sometimes 14.2 at 3k. no codes. So now im thinking battery or Voltage reg.  the starter  sounds bad on the gear so I elect to replace it after all...I have to KNOW the bike is realible.
So,  and thanks for reading  all this, Im wondering if the root cause could be the ACR?
Would it fail intermittenly?
wouldnt there be a code if it fails? or s ther no feedback to the ECM?

[grc]

If voltage is dropping below 9.6V when cranking, you have a battery problem or a massive draw.  Is this the original battery, or do you know exactly how old it is?  With the battery fully charged, it can be load tested to determine if it's the battery.  The draw while cranking can also be measured with the appropriate equipment, which any decent shop should have.  And 14.2V charging voltage is within the specification tolerance.

The starting issues on the '07/'08 models could be traced to defective ACR's and/or the POS stock compensator.  Since your tech had to change the rotor when he installed the new compensator, that tells me the bike still had the really poor original.  Replacing it with the latest SE compensator should have taken care of that part of the problem.

Some people who installed a T-Max found that the early versions didn't support the ACR's.  Supposedly the later versions corrected that error, but you need to make sure they are actually enabled in the T-Max ECM.  I can't tell you exactly how to do that, but I'm sure someone can.

Btw, if you keep replacing the entire starter you will eventually have a big pile of money invested/wasted.  If the actual electrical part of the starter assembly is OK, and the vast majority are, all you need to do is replace the actual drive if it's damaged.  Starters can be tested for electrical function.

Jerry

[Rupert]

Thanks GRC,
the ACR is turned on correctly in thet max I saw it when we loaded the tune. We did the starter draw thats where I got the voltage. I have no idea how old the battery is. based on the outside condition and the wear marks I'd say its a couple years old at least. As the bike was hardly driven over its 6 yea life prior to me...It coud be the original. I do kow that IF I have a voltage reg  problem, replaceing the battery  will hide that issue for  awhile, then,  like buying a bunch of starters I would be  buying batteries avery 6 months ...back to the ACR If its failing, its intermitten, as it started fine the last ten times. tech is gonna test dive and se if he can duplicate the no start. luckily I have another bike, as the clutch drum wont be done until tomorrow at the earliest. I may just have him replace the ACR, as insurance, I think it may be the root cause of all the non- electrical issues.

Thanks again

[Dead_Reckoning]

Thanks GRC,
the ACR is turned on correctly in thet max I saw it when we loaded the tune. We did the starter draw thats where I got the voltage. I have no idea how old the battery is. based on the outside condition and the wear marks I'd say its a couple years old at least. As the bike was hardly driven over its 6 yea life prior to me...It coud be the original. I do kow that IF I have a voltage reg  problem, replaceing the battery  will hide that issue for  awhile, then,  like buying a bunch of starters I would be  buying batteries avery 6 months ...back to the ACR If its failing, its intermitten, as it started fine the last ten times. tech is gonna test dive and se if he can duplicate the no start. luckily I have another bike, as the clutch drum wont be done until tomorrow at the earliest. I may just have him replace the ACR, as insurance, I think it may be the root cause of all the non- electrical issues.

Thanks again

Has anyone checked out your Starter Clutch Assembly? (spring,output shaft,starter clutch)
My friends 09 RK would make helatious racket and not start.
Local wrench checked the battery "Under Load" and it was fine.
Pulled the starter and replaced the starter clutch and spring. No longer any issues in 18 months.

Just because the bike has very low miles and sat around for 6 years does not guarantee you will not have issues.
For instance the lube to the primary does not fully immerse the chain. So it sat for a very long time with the top half exposed.
What is the four digit code in the box on your tires? the first two are the week of mfg and the last two are the year. Betting those tires are 6 years old. Recommended they be replaced after five years regardless of what you think they look like or miles on them,

[Rupert]

Hey dead reckoning, nice handle btw, IM a retired coastie and appreciatte the nautical ref,
Its  new starter, as the other one failed when we mounted it properly. The new one doeshave  few hard starts and kickbacks under its belt. It has started fine ( functions) the last ten times.  I dont like the noise, so I  am having the clutch hub replaced. although it functions I have replced the Comp and chain so it makes since.  If its still nosey the starter will be repaired/ replaced. three hapens to be a shop accross the street from my tech that does that.
Ill get it back and run it. It may need a battery, and or a voltage reg, but its ( barely) within specs.
thanks for the tire date info They re on my to do list, Ill be sure to check the dates and maybe they will move up to the must be done list.
My concern is that the ACR may be failing intermitenly and be the actaul root cause of all my ( non-electrical) isues.
However I cant just replace parts. unfortunatly It may take a while before it happens again or ever. If it does It may damage all I have replaced, but perhaps not.
Does anyone have experience with an intermitten failure ( to open) ACR?

Thanks again!

[Rupert]

I posted most of this into in the ( wrong)  intake exhaust section: http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=95763.0
New here, still finding my way around.
Short story; I bought an 08 SERK, with 2500 miles on it. It had an odd noise when it started which I did not note the importance of until at 5500 miles:
It started leaking out of the primary at the starter. Found the starter to be mounted without dowel pins, and sealed with lots of black RTV.  Added dowel pins and remounted. loud bang crunch upon starter engagemant. tried agan and it started fine. Lasted 2 days . replaced starter. It engaed fine with primary off and spark plugs out, but bang/ crunch ouch with first real start. Replaced Compensator rotor and chain. The chain  was stiff and tore up, some thing ( parts of a starter drive no doubt) went thru it. Ring gear teeth were filed and stoned as they werea worn and a few had the tips broken off (say 1/8 " max missin) . It started fine (with primary open, just to check starter engagement) , other than some noise in the ring gear.  ran great on road test but upon hot restart the starter engaged but would not turn engine over. Bike started 2 days later  just fine, and has 10 times since. I don't like the noise the starter is making when engaged with the ring gear so  I had my indy replace the clutch hub ( ouch). At this point it just makes sense to have all new components in the primary.  Checked  ECM ( its a thundermax, note the starter issues starte before the instal of the thundermax, they were disguised by the lack of dowel pins and rtv. ) for codes due to possible ACR issue- no start and found low voltage ACR. I think code 5556. trouble shooting calls for test using fuel injector test light, is that just a standard 12v test light?
I don't want to replace the ACRs just to find out its a ground etc. Anyone with any experince with this please fill me in, this is becoming a pandoras box for me.
BTW There is no way the dealer was unaware that there was issues. I had the Dealer Mech drive the bike due to tuning issues, bad TPS unit, and an oil leak. Ill save that rant for later.
I hope to be able to drive the bike to gettyburg this weekend!
Appreciate any help/advice.

[Rupert]

Update: I picked it up form my INDY yesterday and took t to work, then drove it home. ( 35 miles) My indy test drove it about 20 miles. He informed me it definatly has cams and motor work. Now that the entore Primary has been replaced and the tune adjusted slightly, it s a rocket!
Every time I start it I get  a little more confident its not gonna kick back, etc.
I'm concerned thatthere was a codde for low voltage to the ACR, however I may have set that when I rolled it over with the starter and the primary open/ spark plugs out. Ill be watchin for signs of ACR problems and checking for codes.
Gonna wash and wax today after work, then off to Gettyburg tomorrow.

[Rupert]

Well, 300+ miles and more imortantly ten or so starts. I am begining to relax vice cringe when I press the start button.
The starter engages fine, but seems to run on after the bike starts and it disengages. It is a high tq starter and a few of my buds that I had listen to it think its just that; high tq starters are noisey after engagement.
I am more concerned with the thunk -thunk when I shut it off. IN gear, in nuetral clutch in / out doesnt matter, it knocks 2x everytime. Its not loud, but its there.
Sounds like a car runningon after you shut it off, only much queiter and not as violent. Now I am aware that that is a sign of a possible bad compensator.  As I just replaced the clutch basket, chain, comp and rotor one would expect the comp to be fine.
Im going to drive it and see. It sure does like to go!

[Rupert]

This is definatly begining to suck. only been 500 miles since I spent 2k on the entire primary replacement.
Late  last week noticed oil under primary, and its prmary fluid.
Its leaking from up above the drive gear, most likely from the starter mount, as before.
Fri night I experienced starter kickback.
Its not starting the same every time: sometimes it rolls over 2x and fires up other times it rolls over more and doesnt start( I leggo the button) then it starts on next try.
Always in Nuetrel and wait for fuel pump to stop before attempting start.
It fired up this morning so I drove it to my indy. he will check for codes, and we are looking into the ACR.
while I was there I saw another comp he had replaced, it was the version before the current one, the one with the bushing vice the needle bearing and no oil "cup" It was all galled up and his major symptom was surging during clutch engagemnet from a stop.

maybe I should just carry around a spare starter and tools.

thinking manual ACRs and belt drive at this point.....Not what I expected whenI bought the SERK.
 

[Rupert]

Update: My indy may have figured this out. The ACRs are fine He looked at the maps for the t-max, like alot of them and they all bring timing advance in at 200/ 400/ 600 rpms. My SERK has cams in it, but IDK what grind( dealer claimed ignorance when I bought it), and that most likely is closing the exhaust valve earlier than stock. Its kicked back when warm, and starts diferrenetly every time when cold or warm with no kick back. SO perhaps the combonation of early compression with early( relatively) spark is the culprit for this issue. He took all of the timing out of the lower RPMs and has started it 15 times. Its starts the same each time and no kickback.  today he will start it cold and then remove the starter for the leak. I suspect the neck is cracked.
luckily the starter rebuild shop is accross the street from my indy, so I should be up and running in time for the rain coming this weekend