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Author Topic: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?  (Read 8711 times)

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bikerboy53

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Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« on: July 02, 2014, 03:31:34 PM »

I'm running a "stock" S&S T124 (high compression version) with HD Ventilator A/C and have had it dyno tuned by a reputable shop in the San Francisco Bay Area. The performance is good, but I'm a little concerned about some of the noises I hear under acceleration. The motor sounds fine when cruising at light throttle and a steady speed (2500 to 3000 rpm or so), but as soon as I roll into the throttle a little I hear what I think sounds like pinging/detonation.

Once I had enough miles (>1,000) on the motor to flog it on the dyno, I thought a good tune would get rid of the noise. After tuning it, the dyno operator had me test ride the bike a couple of times to see if the "pinging" went away after he made adjustments to the map. Each time, there was no difference, so he finally went for a ride with me. I can't be sure that he heard the noise, because I was on the back of the bike and couldn't hear as much. His opinion was that the sound I'm hearing is intake valve noise.

I'm only home on the weekends and haven't had a chance to hook the TTS up to record some spark retard/knock sensor data yet. Or I thought I might throw a major dose of octane boost in it to see if that makes a difference. I'm hoping to have time this weekend to chase it a little, but the missus has ride plans laid out for most of the weekend...  :-*

Can anyone describe what intake valve noise sounds like?
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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 04:09:04 PM »

 I would add some good octain boost to your fuel to rule out the pinging. Fast way to tell.
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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 04:10:15 PM »

I'm running a "stock" S&S T124 (high compression version) with HD Ventilator A/C and have had it dyno tuned by a reputable shop in the San Francisco Bay Area. The performance is good, but I'm a little concerned about some of the noises I hear under acceleration. The motor sounds fine when cruising at light throttle and a steady speed (2500 to 3000 rpm or so), but as soon as I roll into the throttle a little I hear what I think sounds like pinging/detonation.

Once I had enough miles (>1,000) on the motor to flog it on the dyno, I thought a good tune would get rid of the noise. After tuning it, the dyno operator had me test ride the bike a couple of times to see if the "pinging" went away after he made adjustments to the map. Each time, there was no difference, so he finally went for a ride with me. I can't be sure that he heard the noise, because I was on the back of the bike and couldn't hear as much. His opinion was that the sound I'm hearing is intake valve noise.

I'm only home on the weekends and haven't had a chance to hook the TTS up to record some spark retard/knock sensor data yet. Or I thought I might throw a major dose of octane boost in it to see if that makes a difference. I'm hoping to have time this weekend to chase it a little, but the missus has ride plans laid out for most of the weekend...  :-*

Can anyone describe what intake valve noise sounds like?

Yeah.  It sounds like that guy is FOS.  I've heard a lot of BS over the years, but someone trying to claim he can distinguish a noise as coming from the intake valve while riding the bike takes the cake.  How does he know it's an intake and not an exhaust?  What's the difference in sound that allows him to distinguish between detonation, intake valve noise, or an exhaust valve noise?  Have him give you examples of each (that ought to be good for a good laugh).  I'd guess this guy doesn't have a clue and just wants to blow you off.

Jerry

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 09:54:54 PM »

I'm running a "stock" S&S T124 (high compression version) with HD Ventilator A/C and have had it dyno tuned by a reputable shop in the San Francisco Bay Area. The performance is good, but I'm a little concerned about some of the noises I hear under acceleration. The motor sounds fine when cruising at light throttle and a steady speed (2500 to 3000 rpm or so), but as soon as I roll into the throttle a little I hear what I think sounds like pinging/detonation.

Once I had enough miles (>1,000) on the motor to flog it on the dyno, I thought a good tune would get rid of the noise. After tuning it, the dyno operator had me test ride the bike a couple of times to see if the "pinging" went away after he made adjustments to the map. Each time, there was no difference, so he finally went for a ride with me. I can't be sure that he heard the noise, because I was on the back of the bike and couldn't hear as much. His opinion was that the sound I'm hearing is intake valve noise.

I'm only home on the weekends and haven't had a chance to hook the TTS up to record some spark retard/knock sensor data yet. Or I thought I might throw a major dose of octane boost in it to see if that makes a difference. I'm hoping to have time this weekend to chase it a little, but the missus has ride plans laid out for most of the weekend...  :-*

Can anyone describe what intake valve noise sounds like?

Who did the tuning?
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GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 08:57:28 AM »

FBW t/b noise.. May be what you are hearing.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 10:05:25 AM »

Steve
Have any ideas how to tame that?
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GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2014, 10:51:40 AM »

Well he has two bikes so I am thinking its the FBW version. And no you really cannot tame it. I can tell you that the Heavy breather intake is by far the loudest of them. Very much like cars they have long intake tubes with resonators built into the intake tube for this very reason. His intake has to be able ot feed the 124 and what he has is middle of the road. Now maybe a heavy breather with some mods to the tube with baffles .. but in the end you are dealing with such a short workable area of intake tract.

Here is a few things you deal with, With the FBW bikes the plates is also bouncing and that has made it known to the HD world. On a cable bike the plate will not bounce so the noise is greatly reduced or none at all.  The car world has struggled with this for many years. The cams we use create it as well. Its louder on the 14 cam than on the 13 cam. As with the 14 we have some overlap where as the 13 cam was negative.


On the bikes its a issue and not much that can be done about it. Redmtcyl pulled a cam as he did not like the noise it made . Maybe he will post up on that.

This is more so car stuff I deal in that as a fun factor with a race car. But gives you an idea of how much tech so to speak goes into the air intake. HD runs a air cleaner with there parts that works. Take that unit off install a heavy breather even with a stock cam and you can hear it.



Pressure Wave Harmonics
Air flowing into your cylinder head's intake port doesn't move in a straight line while the valve is open, then politely stop in its tracks to await another valve opening. When the valve closes, the moving column of air slams into it, then compresses and bounces back like a spring. This pressure wave travels backward at the speed of sound until the intake runner opens up or it hits something, and then it bounces back toward the cylinder. This is the "first harmonic." The pressure wave actually bounces back and forth it may be  two or three more times before the intake valve opens again.

Intake Tube Pulses
The resonator in a vehicle intake is technically known as a Helmholz resonator, an acoustic device used to control pressure wave harmonics. Air bouncing back out of your engine and into the intake tube doesn't do it in a single pulse the way it would in a single intake runner; the multiple pistons put out pressure waves at their own intervals, and some of those are going to try to bounce back in while others are going out. The result is a "clog" or high pressure area in your intake tube that ultimately limits airflow through almost the entire rpm spectrum.

The Resonator
Adding an expansion chamber to the intake tube forces air coming back out of the engine to slow down to fill the cavity, thus expending a great deal of its energy and slowing the pressure wave reversion. This slowdown allows fresh air to flow toward the engine without fighting pressure reversion waves the entire way, thus aiding in cylinder filling. Since these pressure waves are essentially sound, giving them a place to expend their energy before exiting the air filter box ends up dampening the intake noise and quieting the engine. Thus, the resonator helps to make the engine paradoxically quieter and more powerful.  Seeing these test done on a chassis dyno with the race car is funny as my race car see double duty. Street strip I had to find the middle ground on that vehicle. With the most air flow it made a very small % more power. However the noise it made was awful .
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 11:11:22 AM by GMR-PERFORMANCE »
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hrdtail78

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 11:21:40 AM »

It's real hard to describe noises on a forum.  Valve train noise is usually a ticking type noise.  Throttle blade is more of a clack or clunk.  Valves are more of a hallow clapping sound.  Detonation is a ping or pink or dink.  It's pretty metallic sounding.

Something to keep in mind is when the noise is happening.  TB noise is really big at idle most of the time.  It seems to go away on hard decal, but this is when detonation is more likely to happen. 

I would suggest hooking up the flight recorder and recording spark data.  It will take all the guess work out.  Maybe.
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GMR-PERFORMANCE

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 11:23:42 AM »

my 2009 SG with the 120/120+  107 with a HPI 55 MM on it under hard roll on was louder than the zilla pipe. :nixweiss:
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hrdtail78

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 12:01:03 PM »


 TB noise is really big at idle most of the time.  It seems to go away on hard decal, but this is when detonation is more likely to happen. 


What cam was that, Steve?  ;)
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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM »

It was the best cam ... HA HA my set up did it with the 585 625 S&S Tman 625, woods 9b and last but not least the crane 296. So in my case it was there the entire time. As well it was there with a SE 58 , and the HPI 55 .  I get what you are saying
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cahdbiker

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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 02:03:13 AM »


bikerboy53, if you read the fine print on most octane boost products they only raise the octane 1 tenth of 1%. You are much better off finding a station that sells 100 octane and filling your tank with that. You will definitely have some fun until you go back to 93 or 91. I used to run it in my 95 Heritage which had super high compression. Hopefully you can find some locally and give it a try. CAHDBIKER



I'm running a "stock" S&S T124 (high compression version) with HD Ventilator A/C and have had it dyno tuned by a reputable shop in the San Francisco Bay Area. The performance is good, but I'm a little concerned about some of the noises I hear under acceleration. The motor sounds fine when cruising at light throttle and a steady speed (2500 to 3000 rpm or so), but as soon as I roll into the throttle a little I hear what I think sounds like pinging/detonation.

Once I had enough miles (>1,000) on the motor to flog it on the dyno, I thought a good tune would get rid of the noise. After tuning it, the dyno operator had me test ride the bike a couple of times to see if the "pinging" went away after he made adjustments to the map. Each time, there was no difference, so he finally went for a ride with me. I can't be sure that he heard the noise, because I was on the back of the bike and couldn't hear as much. His opinion was that the sound I'm hearing is intake valve noise.

I'm only home on the weekends and haven't had a chance to hook the TTS up to record some spark retard/knock sensor data yet. Or I thought I might throw a major dose of octane boost in it to see if that makes a difference. I'm hoping to have time this weekend to chase it a little, but the missus has ride plans laid out for most of the weekend...  :-*

Can anyone describe what intake valve noise sounds like?
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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 03:10:28 PM »

Stay awaty from the octain booster if you have 02 sensors....the booster will kill the 02 sensors very quickly. If the bike was indeed tuned correctly, (a big IF), then add about 20 to 25% to your ACCEL ENRICHMENT table, this will add fuel as you roll on and should stop pinging during roll on
Doc
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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 03:21:33 PM »

  If you used octain booster in the past, and your 02 sensors are toast, how would you know?  How would you know your 02 sensors are dead?
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Re: Intake Valve Noise vs Pinging?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 09:05:12 PM »

Well if you have the TTS you can use the Data Mode to see the voltage and toggling in stream graph. If you don't have the TTS you can always go to the dealer and hook it up to the DT so the dealer can see if they are within specs.
Another good sign would be if the bike started to run rough, gas mileage changing.....OR you will have a intake valve noise.....LOL...LOL.
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« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 09:06:50 PM by Doc 1 »
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