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[harlez4me]

Hey guys, I just took delivery of my R&B Jester today. After the dealer left, I started the engine several times to hear a very distinct load knock sound. It sounds harsh like a rod bearing on a car with worn out bearings. It is a one hit sound with nothing after when twisting the throttle. I talked to the dealer and he says that they all do it and the MoCo says it is normal. I used "engine knock" in the seach engine and found nothing on this site. This noise is very obvious....does anyone else get this noise on start up? I have not even drove the bike yet (chitty weather)
JD

[SEULTRA]

I get that just at the point of first cylinder to fire and then nothing after. Seems normal to me. Never had the sound change in over a year of owning it.
Jerry... what do you think??

[harlez4me]

The sound is like a harsh detination sound. I should add that the dealer installed Map 84 for me before dropping the bike off and I have not done the pipes/mufflers and air cleaner as of yet.
JD

[SEULTRA]

Now that I've thought about it a bit I think what I'm hearing is the starter releasing from engagement. Tough to diagnose without actually hearing it. Can you narrow it down to where it seems to be coming from? Upper engine, lower engine, front, back, etc,?

[harlez4me]

I know what you mean about it hard to diagnose whithout hearing it. I run a car repair garage and I get this all the time. This noise is heavy and deep. It sounds like an engine mount bolt could be loose and making a hammer noise on the intial crank. It seems to happen at the exact time that the first cylinder has combustion. I went under the bike with a pry bar and pried the engine side to side flexing the mounts while I had my wife crank the engine. I counld not change the noise, so I don't think there is a loose mystrey bolt.....although I did find a "ready to fall out" loose bolt that anchors the front adjustable torque link from engine to frame.
JD

[JDOFLHRIDER]

MINE DID THAT SOMETIMES BEFORE I CHANGED PIPES,NOW IT DON'T DO IT AND I CAN EVEN HEAR THE COMPRESSION RELEASE.RIDE SAFE JDO

[grc]

I get that just at the point of first cylinder to fire and then nothing after. Seems normal to me. Never had the sound change in over a year of owning it.
Jerry... what do you think??

Harley changed the primary drive system and ratio on the '07's, to go with the new 6 speed, and when combined with the larger engines and new starting strategy in the ECM they have a tendency on initial firing to fully compress and bottom out the compensator.  This results in a "knock" which Harley has acknowledged.  They also indicate it has no adverse affect on the engine and they consider it to be normal.  I believe, but can't prove, that this is what at least part of the remap on the '07 service recall/bulletin was meant to improve, by delaying the first spark until the engine spins up a little more.

Jerry

[harlez4me]

Thanks for the reply Jerry. It is nice to hear that H-D acknowledges the noise and mine isn't an isolated case.
What is a compensator?
Do you think that the map 84 download has made this knock more prominant?
I can't imagine this knock being acceptable to most people when you hear people complaining in this forum about whine noises and vibrations. I still have not rode mine yet...I plan on getting the pipes and SEAC put on first, then wait for some dry road.
JD

[grc]

JD,

The compensator is a mechanical shock-absorbing device mounted on the left end of the crankshaft.  It's purpose is to "soften" the shock to the primary drive and transmission that occurs when the engine fires, and conversely the shock to the engine when you downshift, drop the clutch, etc.  It basically consists of two pieces with mating ramps and a spring to hold the two parts together. One part is splined to the crankshaft, the other is the sprocket which transfers power to the primary drive chain and clutch.  Shock loads cause the ramps to try to climb each other, compressing the spring and resulting in a slight cushioning affect.  Couldn't find a decent picture, so I hope this description helps.

Changing to the 84 map with the SERT wouldn't cause or worsen this, it's a mechanical issue that was exacerbated by Harley's change to the starting routine to make the bike start quicker.

Jerry

[harlez4me]

Thamks again...I will pay attention when I go in to do the inner primary.
You decription makes good sense.
JD

[WVULTRA]

Hey guys, I just took delivery of my R&B Jester today. After the dealer left, I started the engine several times to hear a very distinct load knock sound. It sounds harsh like a rod bearing on a car with worn out bearings. It is a one hit sound with nothing after when twisting the throttle. I talked to the dealer and he says that they all do it and the MoCo says it is normal. I used "engine knock" in the seach engine and found nothing on this site. This noise is very obvious....does anyone else get this noise on start up? I have not even drove the bike yet (chitty weather)
JD

JD:  

I too get the "clunk" when starting the Ultra........can't remember it never doing it, am currently at 2800 miles.  Also waiting on better weather!  This info was released early on:

TT258 – August 9, 2006

Primary Drive / Starter Noise Complaints

Several dealers and customers have commented about a “clunking” noise coming from the
primary housing during start up. Most dealers suspect a loose compensator because the
noise seems to come from the front of the housing. Customers tend to associate it with a
starter issue like improper starter drive engagement into the clutch’s ring gear. In fact the
condition they are noticing is what is referred to as “Starter Knock”. This is a normal sound
and condition for all 2007 Twin Cam models.
Changes in the primary drive system increased the diameter and inertial effects of the
rotating components (clutch and sprocket assembly, ring gear, and engine sprocket). Also,
the engine control system is calibrated to start the engine as quickly as possible (short crank
to run times) and to run up to the predetermined engine idle speed as quickly as possible to
provide very positive starting.
Because the engine fires and then runs up to speed very quickly, there is a large torque input
and instantaneous speed differential between the engine and spring loaded compensator
mounted between the engine and the driveline. The compensator is there to dampen the high
torque spikes inherent in a large displacement V-Twin.
Because of the increased inertia in the rotating components in the driveline, their rotational
speed cannot increase as fast as the engine, so the springs in the compensator momentarily
bottom and results in the sound that you hear.
The same sound exists in the 2006 Dyna models, but to a lesser extent. The increase in
displacement to 1584cc increased the torque spike and speed differential in the 2007’s and
causes the sound to be more noticeable.
There is no damage associated with the compensator bottoming.
Identifying characteristics of this condition:
1. It may be intermittent, as it is dependant on the start up conditions and how quickly the
ignition and engine RPM occurs.
2. It will be a single event. Once the starter is disengaged or the compensator is loaded
the sound will stop, unlike a loose sprocket assembly.
3. The condition may be more noticeable on Touring models due to the shorter primary
drive (shaft center to center distance) and associated shorter chain run. The extra
body parts like fairings and saddlebags also tend to reflect powertrain sounds upward,
towards your ears.

IMO, if you get a chance to listen to other '07s, you should hear about the same though the 110" CVO engines may be a little more pronounced.

I did receive this from a '07 CVO Dyna rider:

I took my bike to the New Orleans shop on Airline Hwy in Metairie La. I was told that my starter problems were normal for a 110 cc engine. I asked the service people if this loud sound was doing any damage to my starter & they told me this loud sound when starting my bike was normal. I was always worried about maybe not being able to start my bike on a road trip. The service manager assured me this started noise was normal. I got ahold of a friend of mine with 4 Harley's and she told me to take my bike to another dealer she had really good luck with in Hammond Louisiana. I took my bike to the Hammond dealer & they said the loud noise was not at all normal. I left my bike for them to repair. The problems with starter issue were the automatic compression release solenoids were failing this caused damage to starter clutch assy. Both ACR's in front & back cylinders had to be replaced & i needed new starter clutch assy. also. I am so glad i took my bike to a dealer that knew what they were doing. I will never take my bike to the New Orleans dealer again. It's a 45 minute ride to Hammond dealer but that's where i will be going from now on.

I hope this info helps, and congrats on the new Jester! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Ben [smiley=drink.gif]

[Boatman]

Also, the 07's don't have a starter jackshaft (starter bendix engages flywheel directly) and with this and what Jerry stated about the compensator winding, the noise occurs.  I'm not sure that anything can be done.
Was posting as WVUltra did and he did a fine job in finding his MOCO report that should clarify the issue.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[harlez4me]

I must say that I am very relieved and content now. I was nervous that after I had waited all this time for my bike that I might have got a dud. Thank you to all....this site is awsome.

I believe the noise to be the compensator and not the starter. The starter is engaged and cranking before the noise occures. Its when combustion takes place that it happens. Taking into consideration where the compensator is located and the bike having lowers, I can see the "microphone effect" taking place amplifying the sound.
I am sure I will have to explain this story to alot of my friends when they here it start for the first time. I will print the quote off from WVUltra to back me up.  
WV...was that a H-D MoCo bulletin?
JD

[WVULTRA]

I must say that I am very relieved and content now. I was nervous that after I had waited all this time for my bike that I might have got a dud. Thank you to all....this site is awsome.

I believe the noise to be the compensator and not the starter. The starter is engaged and cranking before the noise occures. Its when combustion takes place that it happens. Taking into consideration where the compensator is located and the bike having lowers, I can see the "microphone effect" taking place amplifying the sound.
I am sure I will have to explain this story to alot of my friends when they here it start for the first time. I will print the quote off from WVUltra to back me up.  
WV...was that a H-D MoCo bulletin?
JD

JD:  A MoCO tech tip.  Have attached copy for your reference.

Happy Holidays!

 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[jfh]

JD:  A MoCO tech tip.  Have attached copy for your reference.

Happy Holidays!

 [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

This forum is a better source for technical updates than most dealerships.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]