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[grc]

one of the reasons I was interested in auto tune was the changes the box made with the oxygen sensors for evaluation and temps as the season changes I ride in different parts of the country.

      I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  If you're alluding to the dubious claim they make about having several different maps you can quickly swap around for different conditions, you need to know that one good tune is all you need no matter where you ride and what season it is.  Do you take your car or truck in and have it retuned every time the seasons change?  How about if you go on vacation and decide to drive up to Denver and then down to Death Valley?  Didn't think so, and for a very good reason.  Modern engine management systems with EFI don't need such constant tinkering.

The folks writing the ads for most of these products take extreme liberties with their claims, to the point of false advertising in some cases.  Fortunately for them, no one in this country investigates false advertising claims or enforces the law anymore.

Jerry

[easttnrhino]

You have hit on the subject I have been trying to answer, cars and truck are closed loop and the o2 senors do adjust as you drive from Denver to death valley the same way we had change the jets on our dirt bike when we did the same. The factory Harley does the same thing but seems a lot of the tuner delete the 02 sensors, so how do the compensate, that is why I keep trying to find out about the wide band sensor that seem to be used on the auto tuners. I will need a tune due to taking the converter out but I also want the bike to be able to adjust to elevation and weather changes as a closed system does.   Thanks

[Steve Cole]

If your tuner puts the system into Open loop, then the wide bands are NOT doing you any good. The system has been turned OFF and as you travel from Denver to Death Valley your bike is going to act just like a carb'ed bike does. If the Closed loop system is left on and tuned properly it will work just as any modern car or truck does. With that said there is also another issue that most want to ignore with the current wide bands being used today by the aftermarket HD tuners. The problem is not from the O2 manufacture but from the so called aftermarket manufacture guys using them, Tmax, TS, DJ ect all do not follow the specifications called out for by the O2 manufacture! In order for the sensor to give an accurate reading you MUST use the output from the sensor itself and then apply corrections for the Exhaust pressure, Altitude and Temperature of the sensor. If you do not use the necessary corrections the reading will be inaccurate! So what good is a reading for you if it is inaccurate? If the accuracy was only say 0.01 AFR no big deal but according to the O2 manufacture the range when not using the proper correction at a mixture of 13.23 AFR is almost 1.0 AFR!

[Born2Live]

     I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.  If you're alluding to the dubious claim they make about having several different maps you can quickly swap around for different conditions, you need to know that one good tune is all you need no matter where you ride and what season it is.  Do you take your car or truck in and have it retuned every time the seasons change?  How about if you go on vacation and decide to drive up to Denver and then down to Death Valley?  Didn't think so, and for a very good reason.  Modern engine management systems with EFI don't need such constant tinkering.

The folks writing the ads for most of these products take extreme liberties with their claims, to the point of false advertising in some cases.  Fortunately for them, no one in this country investigates false advertising claims or enforces the law anymore.

Jerry

And how many of us buy aftermarket ECM's for our cars and have it dyno'd to optimize performance and mileage?  just sayin....

I am by far the least knowledgeable in tuners, but are you saying that once a bike has an aftermarket tuner on it and has been dyno'd to perfection, that it never needs to be adjusted regardless of weather, altitude, etc?

[Born2Live]

If your tuner puts the system into Open loop, then the wide bands are NOT doing you any good. The system has been turned OFF and as you travel from Denver to Death Valley your bike is going to act just like a carb'ed bike does. If the Closed loop system is left on and tuned properly it will work just as any modern car or truck does. With that said there is also another issue that most want to ignore with the current wide bands being used today by the aftermarket HD tuners. The problem is not from the O2 manufacture but from the so called aftermarket manufacture guys using them, Tmax, TS, DJ ect all do not follow the specifications called out for by the O2 manufacture! In order for the sensor to give an accurate reading you MUST use the output from the sensor itself and then apply corrections for the Exhaust pressure, Altitude and Temperature of the sensor. If you do not use the necessary corrections the reading will be inaccurate! So what good is a reading for you if it is inaccurate? If the accuracy was only say 0.01 AFR no big deal but according to the O2 manufacture the range when not using the proper correction at a mixture of 13.23 AFR is almost 1.0 AFR!

Good info!  Thanks!

[FlaHeatWave]

If your tuner puts the system into Open loop, then the wide bands are NOT doing you any good. The system has been turned OFF and as you travel from Denver to Death Valley your bike is going to act just like a carb'ed bike does. If the Closed loop system is left on and tuned properly it will work just as any modern car or truck does. With that said there is also another issue that most want to ignore with the current wide bands being used today by the aftermarket HD tuners. The problem is not from the O2 manufacture but from the so called aftermarket manufacture guys using them, Tmax, TS, DJ ect all do not follow the specifications called out for by the O2 manufacture! In order for the sensor to give an accurate reading you MUST use the output from the sensor itself and then apply corrections for the Exhaust pressure, Altitude and Temperature of the sensor. If you do not use the necessary corrections the reading will be inaccurate! So what good is a reading for you if it is inaccurate? If the accuracy was only say 0.01 AFR no big deal but according to the O2 manufacture the range when not using the proper correction at a mixture of 13.23 AFR is almost 1.0 AFR!

Steve,
When (on the dyno) the wide bands in the exhaust, through the PowerCommander V (AutoTune) into the laptop, are reading exactly the same as the sniffer(s) in the tailpipes, what's the difference??? (Saw this on my Bud's 113 Skunk...)

OP,
'Running the PC-V / Auto on the 117, starts / runs great (drivability & power), from sea level to > 6k ft., over 40 mpg 2-up / loaded at 80+ on the interstate, 35-38 around town, never a ping, pop, or sneeze.  No Dyno   

[Steve Cole]

They should be they are both from DJ. The error is the TRUE value versus what you are being told. So let's say the dyno operator is looking for a mixture of 13.2 AFR and he see's that, so he calls it done. The problem is the TRUE mixture was 14.0 due to the errors in the circuit being used to measure it. Then if the Wide Bands are used on the road as stated about "Denver to Death valley" as you go up and down in altitude a reading of say 13.2 at Death valley is a completely different reading of the same 13.2 in Denver. Only problem is the ECM doesn't know that due to the poor circuit design, so the mixture is really moving around. If you follow the O2 manufactures (Bosch) specifications and calculate the possible error by not following the specification we can tell the amount of possible error. By doing just that and using a mixture of 13.23 you will find the variation can be as much as 1.0 AFR! Way to much in my book and it explains lot's of what people complain about trying to use one of these type systems. Also the sensors themselves degrade over time and they just do not stop working but they shift the measured mixture overtime then finally die. I have measure O2 that have shifted over 1.0 AFR but still appeared to be working fine. So it is really a crap shoot as to what you have, and is just why I cannot recommend them.

[FLSTFI Dave]

And how many of us buy aftermarket ECM's for our cars and have it dyno'd to optimize performance and mileage?  just sayin....

I am by far the least knowledgeable in tuners, but are you saying that once a bike has an aftermarket tuner on it and has been dyno'd to perfection, that it never needs to be adjusted regardless of weather, altitude, etc?

Truck, diesel has an aftermarket tuner and dyno tune.

Stingray does not yet.

[FlaHeatWave]

They should be they are both from DJ. The error is the TRUE value versus what you are being told. So let's say the dyno operator is looking for a mixture of 13.2 AFR and he see's that, so he calls it done. The problem is the TRUE mixture was 14.0 due to the errors in the circuit being used to measure it. Then if the Wide Bands are used on the road as stated about "Denver to Death valley" as you go up and down in altitude a reading of say 13.2 at Death valley is a completely different reading of the same 13.2 in Denver. Only problem is the ECM doesn't know that due to the poor circuit design, so the mixture is really moving around. If you follow the O2 manufactures (Bosch) specifications and calculate the possible error by not following the specification we can tell the amount of possible error. By doing just that and using a mixture of 13.23 you will find the variation can be as much as 1.0 AFR! Way to much in my book and it explains lot's of what people complain about trying to use one of these type systems. Also the sensors themselves degrade over time and they just do not stop working but they shift the measured mixture overtime then finally die. I have measure O2 that have shifted over 1.0 AFR but still appeared to be working fine. So it is really a crap shoot as to what you have, and is just why I cannot recommend them.

I'm just trying to understand here, not being contrary...

In a Built motor,

Are the "errors in the circuitry being used to measure it" in the ECM the PC-V, or both??

How does the Dyno Operator correlate the info from the (DJ) sniffers to the TTS??

Does the TTS operate in closed loop, open loop, or a combination??

If a combination, when and why??

[Steve Cole]

TTS allows the tuner to do as she/he see's fit, it's just the tool to do the job.

The problem here is that the current aftermarket products do not do what the manufactures tells you need to do to get accurate readings. So the fact that you get a reading, you really do not know what it is. So let' me try and explain it again and if that's not understood, I will keep trying.

Let's start with saying we are using a test gas so we know what we are suppose to get for an answer. That test gas is 13.23 AFR.

In Denver your basically around 6000' above sea level and the Bosch O2 sensor output is going to give a reading.
In Death Valley your basically around 200' below sea level and the Bosch O2 sensor output is going to give a reading.

If it was accurate, both readings should be 13.23 as that is what the test gas is but without using the required corrections they are only NOT 13.23 they are both different! The correction just for altitude ONLY will cause a shift of about 0.15AFR @ 1 bar exhaust pressure in this test case, then you still must handle the real exhaust pressure and temperature corrections. So you can see in a running engine the exhaust pressure is constantly changing as the RPM changes and as you travel up/down in altitude. As the weather changes and air speed across the O2 sensor it's temperature is changing and the correct for that must be factored in. If you plot out the errors created by not using the corrections for JUST Altitude and exhaust pressure you have a range of 0.72 AFR @ 13.23 and then you still need to add the temperature on top of that. So all said and done you have a moving target that you have no idea where it really is due to how it is being done. Now that is just one test point! As the mixture changes leaner and richer the shape of the curve for the output from the O2 sensor changes. The richer you go from 13.23 the curve get bigger as does the error and as you go leaner is gets smaller until you get to stoichmeteric point then it starts getting bigger again. So how can one expect the ECM to handle correcting it properly, when it's not getting told what is really happening?

Now if you switch from the Wide Band back to the stock narrow band sensors they do not have the same issues with altitude, exhaust pressure and temperature but they only measure a narrow range of mixture. So I hope this explains it better for you all.

[easttnrhino]

so the  stock narrow band sensors on the TTS do adjust a certain amount? I know cars adjust constantly and truth be know it is not always perfect, does the TTS with narrow band stock sensors do the same?

[Born2Live]

TTS allows the tuner to do as she/he see's fit, it's just the tool to do the job.

The problem here is that the current aftermarket products do not do what the manufactures tells you need to do to get accurate readings. So the fact that you get a reading, you really do not know what it is. So let' me try and explain it again and if that's not understood, I will keep trying.

Let's start with saying we are using a test gas so we know what we are suppose to get for an answer. That test gas is 13.23 AFR.

In Denver your basically around 6000' above sea level and the Bosch O2 sensor output is going to give a reading.
In Death Valley your basically around 200' below sea level and the Bosch O2 sensor output is going to give a reading.

If it was accurate, both readings should be 13.23 as that is what the test gas is but without using the required corrections they are only NOT 13.23 they are both different! The correction just for altitude ONLY will cause a shift of about 0.15AFR @ 1 bar exhaust pressure in this test case, then you still must handle the real exhaust pressure and temperature corrections. So you can see in a running engine the exhaust pressure is constantly changing as the RPM changes and as you travel up/down in altitude. As the weather changes and air speed across the O2 sensor it's temperature is changing and the correct for that must be factored in. If you plot out the errors created by not using the corrections for JUST Altitude and exhaust pressure you have a range of 0.72 AFR @ 13.23 and then you still need to add the temperature on top of that. So all said and done you have a moving target that you have no idea where it really is due to how it is being done. Now that is just one test point! As the mixture changes leaner and richer the shape of the curve for the output from the O2 sensor changes. The richer you go from 13.23 the curve get bigger as does the error and as you go leaner is gets smaller until you get to stoichmeteric point then it starts getting bigger again. So how can one expect the ECM to handle correcting it properly, when it's not getting told what is really happening?

Now if you switch from the Wide Band back to the stock narrow band sensors they do not have the same issues with altitude, exhaust pressure and temperature but they only measure a narrow range of mixture. So I hope this explains it better for you all.

Couple questions.....There are probably only a handful of us that understand the numbers and science behind the ECM's and properly tuning a bike.    The only thing I want to know is, without the scientific explanation behind it, based on a properly tuned bike..............Are separate maps required for the bike in different altitudes/temps? A simple yes or no will suffice.

As a consumer, I look for pros and cons in any item I buy and hope that I made the right decision in my purchase.  Educating oneself is always the challenge and as many of us have done since the age of the internet, spending countless hours reading forums in sifting out what is true and not true, and by what others recommend or have experience with to make our decisions when making our selections.   What I would like to see is a third party independent testing agency do a shootout of all the tuners on bikes with the same setups, etc.   Just like they do for oils, etc.   Maybe they already do.

[Steve Cole]

The Stock ECM in both a Car/Truck work the same as the HD ECM does. The TTS is just a tool that allows for the tuning to be changed within the ECM, it also comes with many tuning aids that all the other competitors have tried to make there own version of. The thing everyone needs to remember is the ECM is what is making all the decisions when your riding your bike. What you or I believe is right or wrong doesn't matter, it does what it feels is right, and for the record it always wins! Sound like anyone else in your life?.  The O2 sensor is just reading what it see's and passes that signal back to the ECM. If the signal is wrong due to exhaust leaks, poor placement in the exhaust or any other mechanical problem it doesn't care. The ECM then processes that signal based on what is programmed into it. It doesn't know if the signal is right or wrong. If the ECM is not told that it needs to correct the signal it will not do it. It believes what it is told.

This is the issue with the aftermarket O2 units, they do not measure and feed the necessary information to the control circuit to allow it to make the proper corrections and you end up with poor quality readings and the control doesn't know, so it just starts adjusting based on what it's told. So who's to blame here? It isn't an ECM issue, it isn't a Tuning tool issue, it IS a O2 kit issue and that is where it needs to be fixed if you plan to use them. There have been several articles over the years showing the issues and year after year nothing changes and they keep pushing them out the door just as they are. I've attached a copy of just one of the many articles on them being tested and it only shows a few of the issues. This was from back in 2008 - 2009 timeline if I remember correctly. It's sad to say they haven't gotten any better from the testing we have done.

If you have proper installed and working narrow band sensors and a proper tune running Closed loop there is no need for more than one tune to be installed in your bike. Get on it, ride it, and enjoy it!

[grc]

......................................... The only thing I want to know is, without the scientific explanation behind it, based on a properly tuned bike..............Are separate maps required for the bike in different altitudes/temps? A simple yes or no will suffice.
.........................................

I think both Steve and I already answered this question.   NO!

Jerry

[Born2Live]

I think both Steve and I already answered this question.   NO!

Jerry

Thank you!