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[GasRat]

I ordered it from Pipecity.com. But I would think it would be a pretty close if not the same map. And I would rather have it run a little rich for a while than lean like it is now. Did you notice a big seat of the pants difference in the way it ran?

[sadunbar]

Hey guys, check this out.

As luck would have it, the Cycle World International Motorcycle Show is in Washington DC this weekend, and the star of the show is the world's fastest motorcycle, the 350 mph BUB streamliner.  Dennis Manning, BUB's founder, himself is working the show and traveling with the 'liner and decided to stop in for a visit at Zipper's on his way to DC.  

I know what you're thinking.

Yes, he is aware of the recent issues with the sensor fitment, as he has been in contact with Ken at BUB about it while traveling.  We have a 110 here now we are cam testing with, so we mocked the pipe up for him to see first hand.  



His response:  We need to change the pipe.  As many of you have found, BUB is a company that puts customer service as a #1 priority.  He sees the problem and will address it, along with the brake pedal issue.  Now, keep in mind, many pipes have been sold, many more will be before the change makes it through production.  So this is the short term proposal he asked me to pass on to you:  Use large bolt (the thread is metric, 18 x 1.5), or an 18mm spark plug, thread it into the pipe and give it a whack (a "ding" he called it, like copout did) to shift the sensor around for clearance.  If you damage your pipe doing this, he will warranty it without question.  Period.

[highlight]Dennis is one of the good guys.  He is good to his word.  If the Rineharts are what you want, get them.  He'll back you up if you have a problem.[/highlight]
Thanks, JK

Denis is absolutely one of the good guys.  I have met Denis and his son on several occasions. The plant manager of the Bub's manufacturing facility in Janesville is a friend of mine.  If I sometimes sound overly defensive of Rineharts, this is probably why.  Every manufacturer has problems, including Bub's.  The thing that sets Bub's apart from most is they are more "biker" then "business".  Anyone that ever met Denis would know that is true.  His company's customer service is outstanding.  His product is great, [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] and Denis is one of us.  In case everyone does not already know this, BUB'S stands for "Big Ugly Bastard", which is is how Denis often introduces himself.  "I'm the big ugly bastard that owns the place" is how Denis introduced himself to me the first time I met him.  He has a beer in one hand and a burger in the other and a big smile on his face.  He is good people and his company is truly a reflection of him.

Scott

[Fired00d]

......  The thing that sets Bub's apart from most is they are more "biker" then "business".  Anyone that ever met Denis would know that is true.  His company's customer service is outstanding.  His product is great, [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] and Denis is one of us.  In case everyone does not already know this, BUB'S stands for "Big Ugly Bastard", which is is how Denis often introduces himself.  "I'm the big ugly bastard that owns the place" is how Denis introduced himself to me the first time I met him.  He has a beer in one hand and a burger in the other and a big smile on his face.  He is good people and his company is truly a reflection of him.

Scott

Scott,
Never knew what BUB stood for thanks for the information. It is nice to know that Dennis stands behind his product and is an approachable person.

Can't wait to get the opportunity to meet him then it will be two "BUB's" sharing a beer and burger. [smiley=2vrolijk_09.gif] [smiley=smilie_koch1.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[skyglide]

'Big Ugly Bastard" Always wondered what Bub stood for? Its a good thing they are taken care of there customers with all the problems they have had over the past few years? I'm sure Dennis would have too or would be out of business soon rather than later. I had bubs on my last seeg with several problems and Karen always took care of me [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] But I sure am glad I went with Fat Cats on the new bike with all of the problems from Bub everyone is having on 110s. Did here of a fitment issue with Bassani as well?

[Woop De Doo]

 Tonight I picked up my CUSE with the Rinehards installed, the "roll your own" a/c, and Dyno complete using the SERT. Fortunately no fitment issues at all. I asked the tuner-Wes Brown- to tune for fuel efficiency as I am past the low ET phase of this life. What a difference in the bike. I have only rode it ~ 10 miles and it was in stop and go traffic. There is a significant power improvement from about 2500 rpm and up. Also when I got home I checked the heat and there was only 20 degrees difference between the two jugs. I need to do more checking in that area to see if the difference remains in the 20 degrees area. Sure beats the 100 degrees difference I had with the stock system. The tuner needed to make 9 separate runs to get it where he wanted it. Initial seat of the pants feelin is I am going to be very pleased with the system.  

   Don S

[RedDevil]

Red,

No problem on the time delay. If you could post some pics when you get back, that would be just great.

As for your question on the wideband -v- narrowband sensors. Twolane has it right, unless you choose a unit that uses the wideband sensor, you wouldn't change.

For me, I need the wideband sensors because I have the Daytona Sensors Twin Scan unit which uses the wideband sensors to measure the air / fuel ratio in the pipes so I can tune my Power Commander at home. This unit allows me to do the same type of tuning that is done on a dyno, as often and as many times as I want.

I like to monkey around with things, and with this unit, I will find myself like a "pig in mud", to steal the perfect phrase from you. I can make changes to the motor and then get it tuned without going to a dyno and paying for a full tune. Eventually, I will get a unit like the Zippers Auto-Tune, but this will do in the meantime. Plus, I have other buddies running Power Commanders and SERTs, and this unit can be used on any bike to tune those units dyno-free too, so I am looking to recoup the initial cost with rental income.

I'll post a more thorough report when it all comes together.

Enjoy AZ,

Chief

I picked the Jester up from the dealership today after getting the 1K and dyno done on her. I looked at the rear sensor placement on the Vance & Hines headers that I have, and there may be a clearance issue with the wideband sensors and the starter cover.  I don't know how much longer the wideband sensors are than the stock, but the sensor points almost straight down.  The front header would be no problems what-so-ever as the sensor is parallel to the ground, so there is plenty of clearance.  
cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Chief]

I picked the Jester up from the dealership today after getting the 1K and dyno done on her. I looked at the rear sensor placement on the Vance & Hines headers that I have, and there may be a clearance issue with the wideband sensors and the starter cover.  I don't know how much longer the wideband sensors are than the stock, but the sensor points almost straight down.  The front header would be no problems what-so-ever as the sensor is parallel to the ground, so there is plenty of clearance.  
cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

RD,

Thanks for the info. What you say confirms what John Kitzmiller said, that the wideband sensor runs smack into the starter.

Thanks for the post.

Chief

[TCinVA]

I picked the Jester up from the dealership today after getting the 1K and dyno done on her. I looked at the rear sensor placement on the Vance & Hines headers that I have, and there may be a clearance issue with the wideband sensors and the starter cover.  I don't know how much longer the wideband sensors are than the stock, but the sensor points almost straight down.  The front header would be no problems what-so-ever as the sensor is parallel to the ground, so there is plenty of clearance.  
cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Okay, Red.  Let's have it.  How much bigger is that smile ???  Glad you finally got her back.  What's the "seat of the pants" performance improvement?
Tony

[RedDevil]

Okay, Red.  Let's have it.  How much bigger is that smile ???  Glad you finally got her back.  What's the "seat of the pants" performance improvement?
Tony

Tony,
You better believe the smile is back!!!  It was a great day to ride too.  I did notice some extra pull in the mid-range, which is going to come in real handy when momma and I are two-upping in the mountains this summer at the Nationals down in Knoxville.  I was a little suprised in the HP gains, only achieved a little over 86HP at 5000 rpms, but the mid-range torque, jumped a whopping 15 lbft up to 107+!!!!  I'm happy with that.  That's almost crank torque at the rear wheel.  I guess that's what the Vance & Hines give you...more torque but less high end power, than the Rineharts.  But that's okay, I don't do much up in the upper rpm's, I'm mainly around 2000-3500 rpm's.  I'm happier than a pig in mud now.    They did sell the B&O Jester at Richmond Harley to a guy from Ohio.  That may have been the gent you saw eyballin it when you were down there.  
Ride safe,
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[TCinVA]

Tony,
You better believe the smile is back!!!  It was a great day to ride too.  I did notice some extra pull in the mid-range, which is going to come in real handy when momma and I are two-upping in the mountains this summer at the Nationals down in Knoxville.  I was a little suprised in the HP gains, only achieved a little over 86HP at 5000 rpms, but the mid-range torque, jumped a whopping 15 lbft up to 107+!!!!  I'm happy with that.  That's almost crank torque at the rear wheel.  I guess that's what the Vance & Hines give you...more torque but less high end power, than the Rineharts.  But that's okay, I don't do much up in the upper rpm's, I'm mainly around 2000-3500 rpm's.  I'm happier than a pig in mud now.    They did sell the B&O Jester at Richmond Harley to a guy from Ohio.  That may have been the gent you saw eyballin it when you were down there.  
Ride safe,
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Good deal, Red.  Glad you're happy with her.  Forgot to say thanks for the words on the antennas.  I've "lost" 4 of the stock CB antennas on my current Ultra.  Depressing.  Finally gave up and put a couple of the Radio Shack rubber shafts on.  Reception is poor.  I'll be ordering the J&M's for the Jester as my time gets closer.
Glad the B&O in Richmond's showroom found a good home, of course I could have been riding in all of this  beautiful weather if I hadn't committed to Palmer down at Waughs.  I too will be happier than a pig in chit in the not too distant future.
Be safe,
Tony

[RedDevil]

Good deal, Red.  Glad you're happy with her.  Forgot to say thanks for the words on the antennas.  I've "lost" 4 of the stock CB antennas on my current Ultra.  Depressing.  Finally gave up and put a couple of the Radio Shack rubber shafts on.  Reception is poor.  I'll be ordering the J&M's for the Jester as my time gets closer.
Glad the B&O in Richmond's showroom found a good home, of course I could have been riding in all of this  beautiful weather if I hadn't committed to Palmer down at Waughs.  I too will be happier than a pig in chit in the not too distant future.
Be safe,
Tony

Tony,
Don't blame you for sticking with Waugh's.  I wanted to buy mine there, but like Big Daddy told me, with these CVO's you have to get them when and where you can.  It sounds like he didn't get a lot of them this year like in the past.
Cheers,  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[Chief]

Because of a post by TimBone to JK at Zippers in the Zippers Vendor Area, I wrote the following email to Bub to see if we can finally get a consistent answer about the sensor conflict issue.

Dear Ken, Linnea and Jim,

I would like to once again address the issue of the front bung orientation on your 2007 FL True Duals. This is an item I discussed with both Jim and Karen earlier this year. This issue has also been discussed very thoroughly in several different threads on the CVO Harley web site. I have included links to some of these posts at the bottom of this email.

My last contact with Bub was an email I sent to Karen in early January. this email included pictures showing the conflict of a wideband sensor with the oil cooler adapter on the 2007 CVO bikes and several pictures of the stock sensor orientation in the stock pipes. Karen assured me she would forward the email to Ken, and the issue would get some attention. As a side note,  I am sorry to hear Karen is no longer with Bub, as she was a great asset, and had built a great reputation for the warranty department.

As it appears to me, the problem is that Bub chose to use a straight bung on the front pipe which points the sensor down at an angle of approximately 45 degrees. Harley, on the other hand, chose to use an angled bung which positioned the sensor almost horizontally. This horizontal orientation prevents the sensor from coming near anything regardless what length of sensor is installed.

The use of the straight bung, combined with replacement of the stock short sensor with a longer wideband sensor, causes the sensor to hit the stock oil cooler adapter on the CVO bikes, and any other bike where the 2007 Harley oil cooler is installed and the owner needs to install a wideband sensor.

To me, the simplest solution is to use an angled bung like Harley puts in the stock pipes.

We all thought this whole issue was going to be resolved when John Kitzmiller of Zippers made a post on the CVO site, that Dennis stopped in to Zippers' shop while at the Cycle World International Motorcycle Show in D.C. in early January. John posted a couple pictures of Dennis looking at a bike in the shop and posted a summary of what Dennis had told him about the problem. Here is what was posted:


Quote from John Kitzmiller on 1/11/2007:

(Removed due to long length)


After reading this information I decided not to contact Bub anymore as I felt this issue was going to be addressed and I didn't want to bother you anymore about it. That was until I read the following earlier today, a post from a site member to John Kitzmiller, looking for some answers....


Quote from TimBone on 2/8/2007:

John,
Looking to get some info on the below from BUB after reading your thread with Dennis Manning at your shop and the O2 sensor was in a real tight spot on the front pipe and a replacement was in the works.

(Here Tim pasted an email he received from Jim Rego)
I do not know where Zipper's got that info. But I just spoke with our Sales Mngr. and there is nothing like that going to be offered. There was a issue with the rear pipe cracking that we would replace. That may be what they're mistaken with. Our BUB exhaust are made to fit with the OEM bike. When you put the Bosch or Zippers 02 sensors on your bike that is not a OEM device. So I would tell Zipper's that is false. I'm sorry but that is the Companies stand on this issue. The problem is if they made a Mod. for every different aftermarket part, they would be in a steady redesign mode, is what they tell me. Hope this clears up this issue. Thanks, Jim
    

Jim Rego
Bub Tech Support
1-800-934-9739
7:30am-4:00pm pst

Thanks for the scoop.
TimBone    

(End of post)


This type of contradiction is extremely disheartening and raises more questions than it answers. I hope the reason for this answer is that Jim was simply speaking without knowing all of the facts. I don't mean to cause any harm to Jim in calling him out on this, but I think it is important to tell the story.

I am hoping that once and for all, we can get a consistent answer from Bub on this issue. Is there anything that is going to be done to address the sensor issue on the front pipe of your 2007 true duals?

If I can be of any help, please feel free to contact me at your convenience.

Sincerely,

Chuck Matthews

P.S.

All of the above information, and this email, can be found at the following links on the CVO Harley web site. I go by the nickname of Chief on this site. You are welcome to register and participate on this site. You have many, many loyal customers on this site, and your participation may very well bring you more.

First mention of sensor conflict - http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,9738.0.html
Beginning of many pages of sensor conflict discussion - http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,9947.msg157390.html#msg157390
Dennis stops by Zippers - http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,9947.msg160208.html#msg160208
Picture of stock sensor orientation - http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,9947.msg158511.html#msg158511

[RedDevil]

Good email Chief.  I hope it was a mix-up in communications between Jim and Dennis.  But, I fear, in reality, what he said is probably the company line, that they make the bikes for OEM parts and that they can't possibly cover every alternative aftermarket part.  I hope, for the Rinehart fans, that I'm wrong on this.
Cheers ,
Red

[Chief]

Good email Chief.  I hope it was a mix-up in communications between Jim and Dennis.  But, I fear, in reality, what he said is probably the company line, that they make the bikes for OEM parts and that they can't possibly cover every alternative aftermarket part.  I hope, for the Rinehart fans, that I'm wrong on this.
Cheers ,
Red

Thanks Red. I really hope its just a matter of miscommunication and nothing more.

I was sad to hear of Karen's leaving Bub as she was truly an asset in the Warranty department. Hopefully neither party will suffer due to the change. I will say Linnea, was great to speak with on the phone. I hope she jumps right in and keeps the warranty department humming.

I hope to hear something from Bub in a couple day's time. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Chief

[Chief]

I just got a call from Jim Rego at Bub in regard to a call I placed before I sent my email yesterday. When I explained the issue, he said "Oh, you're THAT Chuck Matthews." It sounds as if things are kind of stirred up over on the left coast after my email. Stirred up in a good way.

Jim says he had no knowledge of Dennis' visit to Zippers, and was merely passing along the information as he was instructed to do for these type of "Custom" issues. I told him I was not trying to throw him under the bus by bringing the two different stories together, and he says everything is cool out there.

Right now, everyone is trying to get on the same page so we can get one consistent answer for the question on the sensor locations. Hopefully we'll hear something in the coming weeks.

I still think Bub has our interest in mind, and will do what they can while still keeping an eye on the bottom line.

I am remaining optimistic at this point.

Chief