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[sadunbar]

Got to agree with Brian.  If the stock parts would have fit that's where their responsibility ends.  It's not Zippers job to make sure their parts work with Bub's pipes.  It's not Bub's job to make sure their parts work with Zipper's aftermarket stuff.  The OE configuration is their template.  Anything beyond that is up to us.  Any help they give above and beyond stock configurations to accommodate other third party parts is to be appreciated and applauded.  But it can hardly be expected.


C.O., it's not my position to suggest what you'll feel most comfortable doing or what you might think is fair.  Were it my own bike, however, I'd just fix the damned thing at this point.  The fix is, after all, a simple one.

The pipe has to come on and off at least once more no matter what you do.  If you send it off for replacemet you're down time, shipping costs and likely a couple weeks frustration waiting for stuff that still might or might not be just what you need when you get it home.  Alternatively the pipe could come off after breakfast some Saturday, you could haul it in town to a muffler shop, leave it with him while you get a sandwich, come back right after lunch and put the bike back together that afternoon and ride it to dinner that night.  Total expense won't be but a tiny bit more than the freight cost doing it the other way.  And you don't have to worry about it or fight the problem anymore.  Sometimes it really is best to just declare victory and move on.  Granted, after things have been on the market for awhile and everyone sees everyone elses stuff those things they see more commonly will also get accounted for and adjusted to.  But that takes time.  The T-Max's autotune package is new stuff.  Bub nor V&H nor likely anyone else is building their pipes with Zippers in mind; they've been humping it to do with Harley in mind since the 07 product releases.

I personally can't fault the vendors on this one.  They can't know what we've got, what we've changed or be expected to account for all of our changes.  This stuff is as much (or more) art as it is science sometimes.  Making thing play together is just part of the task..

Exactly right... IMO.    When we chose to alter our bikes, using parts from a variety of sources and vendors, in my mind, it then becomes our responsibility to make them work.  It would be nice if every vendor knew what every other vendor was doing, and they all could avoid conflicts with each other, but I think that is a large expectation.  Sometimes it may be challenging to make everything you want to use work properly, but to me - I enjoy the relaxation of turning wrenches in the garage, and solving problems like these.  Kind of makes me think like I occasionally accomplish something other then bolting parts on.  But - that's me... [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]


Scott

[Chief]

The question begs to be asked, and answered by those more knowledgeable about these things than me...but, does the wide band sensor REQUIRE a perpendicular orientation in the pipe since the sensing ability/accuracy would seem to be more critical?   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

TC,

I can't find any information that addresses your question. The only information I have found, and in many different places, is that the sensor should not be horizontal or pointed down due to possible contamination from condensation in the exhaust pipes getting on the heated element of the sensor. I don't know how important this is for us, and think it would likely apply more to automotive exhaust systems with more pipe area to collect condensation upstream of the sensor. I don't think "proper" mounting is possible, or desirable, on our bikes.

The link I pasted above, where we can get the 45 degree bungs, even has a bung that is in a tube that turns 90 degrees so the sensor can be placed parallel to the pipe. Based on the different styles of bungs available, I would guess that orientation to the exhaust flow is not that critical.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Chief

[Midnight Rider]

I give that a try if RH says there is nothing they can do for me. Do you think a mapp gas torch (very hot usually used for plumbing) will work ? Otherwise, I can always get access to an oxy torch.

CO...the Mapp gas torch should work fine, as you can do some light brazing with it, and silver soldering, which require much higher temps than just regular soft solder used in plumbing work.

[Midnight Rider]

TC,

I can't find any information that addresses your question. The only information I have found, and in many different places, is that the sensor should not be horizontal or pointed down due to possible contamination from condensation in the exhaust pipes getting on the heated element of the sensor. I don't know how important this is for us, and think it would likely apply more to automotive exhaust systems with more pipe area to collect condensation upstream of the sensor. I don't think "proper" mounting is possible, or desirable, on our bikes.

The link I pasted above, where we can get the 45 degree bungs, even has a bung that is in a tube that turns 90 degrees so the sensor can be placed parallel to the pipe. Based on the different styles of bungs available, I would guess that orientation to the exhaust flow is not that critical.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Chief

Chief...I do know that the location of the sensor on our bikes is fairly critical due to contamination from back pressure (there are technical terms for all this, but the words are not part of my repetoire at this point in time), but since I am unfamiliar with exactly how the "typical" sensor measures what it needs to measure, I'm not sure orientation to the pipe would be as critical...but it could be.  I know that in some of my past work with critical flow measuring devices, the location/orientation made rather large differences in how the system worked, but that was a different application.

I'm with some of the others here though...I think more time will be wasted on going back and forth with RH swapping pipes...I personally would just do what it takes to modify the thing and be done with it.  From the pics, it looks like all that's needed is a 1/8" inch or so clearance for the wires.  I understand the frustration and reluctance to take torches and ball peen hammers to something you just paid good money for, but it wouldn't be the first time for me...

[RedDevil]

Mixing up different manufacturers parts is normally, but not always, going to cause some problems.  Hopefully, they aren't serious, time consuming, or cost a fortune to fix.   Hopefully, once the manufacturers get caught up with getting their '07 product line out on the shelves, they will revise their designs to be a little more consistent.  Like one poster stated earlier, and I think this is very applicable, in their desire to get a product to market quickly, they just, and maybe rightfully so, designed them to work with stock equipment only.  They can't take every possible permutation into consideration, nor can they do "worse case" scenario, because what would be worse case?  In our case with the Rineharts, it would appear to be that on certain CVOs, the brake lever needs to be replaced or modified, and when using other than stock O2 sensors, the bung needs to be modified or the OC adapter on the bike.  Like a lot of people stated, when you make the decision to modify your bike with various manufacturers parts, it's incumbent upon you, the owner, to make them work together, and it's really not the responsibility of each individual manufacturer to design their products to work with every possible combination out there.  I know it frustrates us as the owners, and many, including me, can't always understand why they all can't get in the sand box and play nice together, but it happens.  And when you add trying to get a product out to market quickly because of a major change, that adds to the problem.  Maybe the folks at Dynojet are doing the right thing by taking their time putting out a PCIII that will work with the O2 sensors...they will potentially lose a lot of sales by coming to the market late, but then if/when they do make one, it will work in all scenarios.  

Okay, I'm off of my soapbox.  [smiley=soapbox.gif]  Keep a stiff upper lip, and if you're not happy with the way one setup works, return it and try another from another manufacturer that might. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Red

[copout221]

Ok, I just got a response from EPC (Jonathan) who advised RH only recommends the "Terry" system. Not the zippers system. Anyone know about the Terry system? I have never heard of it.

[Hoist!]

Mixing up different manufacturers parts is normally, but not always, going to cause some problems.  Hopefully, they aren't serious, time consuming, or cost a fortune to fix.   Hopefully, once the manufacturers get caught up with getting their '07 product line out on the shelves, they will revise their designs to be a little more consistent.  Like one poster stated earlier, and I think this is very applicable, in their desire to get a product to market quickly, they just, and maybe rightfully so, designed them to work with stock equipment only.  They can't take every possible permutation into consideration, nor can they do "worse case" scenario, because what would be worse case?  In our case with the Rineharts, it would appear to be that on certain CVOs, the brake lever needs to be replaced or modified, and when using other than stock O2 sensors, the bung needs to be modified or the OC adapter on the bike.  Like a lot of people stated, when you make the decision to modify your bike with various manufacturers parts, it's incumbent upon you, the owner, to make them work together, and it's really not the responsibility of each individual manufacturer to design their products to work with every possible combination out there.  I know it frustrates us as the owners, and many, including me, can't always understand why they all can't get in the sand box and play nice together, but it happens.  And when you add trying to get a product out to market quickly because of a major change, that adds to the problem.  Maybe the folks at Dynojet are doing the right thing by taking their time putting out a PCIII that will work with the O2 sensors...they will potentially lose a lot of sales by coming to the market late, but then if/when they do make one, it will work in all scenarios.  

Okay, I'm off of my soapbox.  [smiley=soapbox.gif]  Keep a stiff upper lip, and if you're not happy with the way one setup works, return it and try another from another manufacturer that might. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Red

I generally agree, as I stated in my first post in this thread. But when looking at the photos, it appears that RH can do a better job locating these things without degradation of their design whatsoever. That's a lame location and angle for the bungs, when there's space to have it reconfigured for a broader range of applications. That's why I suggested contacting RH in my second post here. Performance mods will require custom work much of the time, but I don't think it's asking too much for these bungs to be rexamined by them. That's MO on this. Hoist!  8-)

[Midnight Rider]

Here's a link to the Terry system....and no, there's no relation.  Good name, though..

http://www.terrycomp.com/

The problem with it is from what I read, there's only one sensor...close, but no cigar....but, maybe that 'splains the odd location of the O2 bung for the pre 07 pipes from RH...

I guess tuning off one cylinder would be better than nothing...but the Zipper's is better, IMO.

[Chief]

Chief...I do know that the location of the sensor on our bikes is fairly critical due to contamination from back pressure (there are technical terms for all this, but the words are not part of my repetoire at this point in time), but since I am unfamiliar with exactly how the "typical" sensor measures what it needs to measure, I'm not sure orientation to the pipe would be as critical...but it could be.  I know that in some of my past work with critical flow measuring devices, the location/orientation made rather large differences in how the system worked, but that was a different application.

I'm with some of the others here though...I think more time will be wasted on going back and forth with RH swapping pipes...I personally would just do what it takes to modify the thing and be done with it.  From the pics, it looks like all that's needed is a 1/8" inch or so clearance for the wires.  I understand the frustration and reluctance to take torches and ball peen hammers to something you just paid good money for, but it wouldn't be the first time for me...

TC,

I think you are refering to the problem caused from reversion, or the intrusion of outside air entering the pipe and causing a lean reading at the sensor. As long as the sensor is fairly close to the exhaust port, this won't be a problem. This is why the sensors aren't mounted right in front of the mufflers, even though this would make for a really easy instalation.

From my reasearch on this stuff, I've concluded that the sensors are only sampling the gases around them, and don't need to be as precisley oriented as some other types of instrumentation like a pressure probe or other other measurement device like the stuff we used to use in wind tunnel testing where direction and orientation were critical. As long as they can sample their surroundings, that's all I can tell they need.

For me, this is all preliminary since I haven't bought anything yet. I'm currently using V&H slip-ons, stolen from the other bike, on the stock head pipes.

I empathize with the members here who are in this situation. Its a bummer when it could have been avoided pretty easily.

Chief

[Hoist!]

Ok, I just got a response from EPC (Jonathan) who advised [highlight]RH only recommends the "Terry" system[/highlight]. Not the zippers system. Anyone know about the Terry system? I have never heard of it.

Hey Co, the fact that they're recommending any aftermarket system at all, blows their arguement for stock sensors only, right out of the water! Sounds like excuses. They should have stuck to their "stock sensor" rap. It would have been harder to argue with them about that. Hoist!  8-)

[Chief]

I just got off of the phone with Jim in the technical support group at Bub Enterprises (877-282-7473).  I was told that they have never heard of any problems with the O2 sensor mounting configuration. Well, they've heard of it now!!!

I clearly explained to Jim that by replacing the flat bung, that they currently use, with an angled bung the conflict with the OC adapter plate and a wideband sensor would be non-existent, and would prevent losing sales to V&H who doesn't have this problem. He was good at listening and said he would bring the issue up. I think I kept him on the phone a bit longer than he wanted, but he was very nice to speak with.

I told Jim about this site, and about the issues sadunbar and copout221 have had with their O2 sensors. I also told him I would encourage members of the site to contact him personally so their problems could be explained personally and not just through hearsay.

Will it do any good? I don't know, but the squeaky wheel......  I did tell him that if they got this fixed, they'd get another sale, from me.

I will follow-up my call with an email and a link to this thread.

I was very pleased with how fast they returned my call, and were willing to listen to my complaint, even though I don't own their product. Sounds like a great company, I just hope they do the right thing and make their headpipe more like the stock pipe by switching to a different bung.

Chief

[grc]

Here's a link to the Terry system....and no, there's no relation.  Good name, though..

http://www.terrycomp.com/

[highlight]The problem with it is from what I read, there's only one sensor.[/highlight]..close, but no cigar....but, maybe that 'splains the odd location of the O2 bung for the pre 07 pipes from RH...

I guess tuning off one cylinder would be better than nothing...but the Zipper's is better, IMO.

The other problem with the Terry unit is that you have to cut and splice the wiring - no factory type connectors like the Daytona Twin Tech or Zippers ThunderMax units.

Jerry

[Chief]

Phone call follow-up.

Jim just called me back after he ran the issue up the flag pole.

The word he got back was that they know about the problem and they aren't going to address it, so we can go pound sand. He was told that their solution was the "install sensor first" which was tried here without success.

I just sent bubtect@bub.com an email with a link to this thread. Maybe it will help.

I trust BUB is concerned with maintaining a good reputation for their products, and unless they hear about problems from several sources, its very easy to ignore me.

I strongly suggest you contact BUB if you have a problem, and explain to them how you feel.

It won't hurt, and will be at least as beneficial as discussing it here on our forum.

Best of luck to everyone here with the problem. I may be joining you soon, but we'll have to see how this play's out.

Chief

[sadunbar]

[highlight]I just got off of the phone with Jim in the technical support group at Bub Enterprises (877-282-7473).  I was told that they have never heard of any problems with the O2 sensor mounting configuration. Well, they've heard of it now!!![/highlight]
I clearly explained to Jim that by replacing the flat bung, that they currently use, with an angled bung the conflict with the OC adapter plate and a wideband sensor would be non-existent, and would prevent losing sales to V&H who doesn't have this problem. He was good at listening and said he would bring the issue up. I think I kept him on the phone a bit longer than he wanted, but he was very nice to speak with.

I told Jim about this site, and about the issues sadunbar and copout221 have had with their O2 sensors. I also told him I would encourage members of the site to contact him personally so their problems could be explained personally and not just through hearsay.

Will it do any good? I don't know, but the squeaky wheel......  I did tell him that if they got this fixed, they'd get another sale, from me.

I will follow-up my call with an email and a link to this thread.

I was very pleased with how fast they returned my call, and were willing to listen to my complaint, even though I don't own their product. Sounds like a great company, I just hope they do the right thing and make their headpipe more like the stock pipe by switching to a different bung.

Chief

That's interesting.  I emailed both their technical support and their sales support and informed them of the issue, including pictures.  They, in turn, emailed me back thanking me for informing them of the issue, and offering a free T-shirt for my efforts  (which they shipped and received).  The following is our corrospondence...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: SADunbar11@aol.com [mailto:SADunbar11@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:24 PM
To: bubtech@bub.com; bub@bub.com
Cc: SADunbar11@aol.com
Subject: 2007 Rinehart True Duals - Touring

 

I just wanted to send you a note to let you know I just finished installing your new 2007 Rinehart True Dual exhaust system on my 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic.

I am also installing the Thunder Max with Auto Tune ignition system.  This system utilizes 02 sensors.

When installing the 02 sensor in the front pipe, I encountered an interference.  The 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic comes stock with the Harley Davidson Premium Oil Cooler.  There is an adapter plate that installed between the oil filter and engine block.  The adapter plate has two fittings and lines that are the oil supply and return to the oil cooler.  The 02 sensor for the front pipe interferes with the oil cooler adapter plate.  The sensor hits the adapter plate casting.  I had to remove the adapter plate and mill clearance to be able to install the 02 sensor.  The amount of stock I had to remove was roughly .125.

If the bung in the front pipe was installed about .250 "higher" (closer to the flanged end), or if had been installed at a slightly different angle (towards the motor) there would be plenty of clearance.  I have attached a couple of pictures of the installation after milling clearance in the cast oil cooler adapter.

Of course, anyone with a SE Ultra Classic, or anyone with an 07 touring bike that installs the oil cooler who also wants to run with 02 sensors is going to encounter this problem.

Thought you should know....thanks  

Scott Dunbar



Thank you for this information Scott. As a thank you I would like to send you a shirt. What size do you wear?

Thank you,

Jennifer Eagle

Sales Manager-Harley/Metric Cruisers, Sport /Utility ATV's, Sport Bikes

530-477-7490 x208

www.bub.com

[Hoist!]

Phone call follow-up.

Jim just called me back after he ran the issue up the flag pole.

The word he got back was that [highlight]they know about the problem and they aren't going to address it, so we can go pound sand[/highlight]. He was told that their solution was the "install sensor first" which was tried here without success.

I just sent bubtect@bub.com an email with a link to this thread. Maybe it will help.

I trust BUB is concerned with maintaining a good reputation for their products, and unless they hear about problems from several sources, its very easy to ignore me.

I strongly suggest you contact BUB if you have a problem, and explain to them how you feel.

It won't hurt, and will be at least as beneficial as discussing it here on our forum.

Best of luck to everyone here with the problem. I may be joining you soon, but we'll have to see how this play's out.

Chief

I'd send them back and get the V&H headpipes (if you confirm that they'll accomodate the Bosch sensors). If you like the RH sound, use their slip-ons with the V&H pipes. Otherwise use another exhaust. Not sure what other work you've done to the bike, but those RH stepped headers shouldn't make a significant difference unless you've made extensive engine mods. If you modify the RH pipes you'll probably void their warranty too! Hoist!  8-)