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[Chief]

That's interesting.  I emailed both their technical support and there sales support and informed them of the issue, including pictures.  They, in turn, emailed me back thanking me for informing them of the issue, and offering a free T-shirt for my efforts  (which they shipped and received).  The following is our corrospondence...


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From: SADunbar11@aol.com [mailto:SADunbar11@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:24 PM
To: bubtech@bub.com; bub@bub.com
Cc: SADunbar11@aol.com
Subject: 2007 Rinehart True Duals - Touring

 

I just wanted to send you a note to let you know I just finished installing your new 2007 Rinehart True Dual exhaust system on my 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic.

I am also installing the Thunder Max with Auto Tune ignition system.  This system utilizes 02 sensors.

When installing the 02 sensor in the front pipe, I encountered an interference.  The 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic comes stock with the Harley Davidson Premium Oil Cooler.  There is an adapter plate that installed between the oil filter and engine block.  The adapter plate has two fittings and lines that are the oil supply and return to the oil cooler.  The 02 sensor for the front pipe interferes with the oil cooler adapter plate.  The sensor hits the adapter plate casting.  I had to remove the adapter plate and mill clearance to be able to install the 02 sensor.  The amount of stock I had to remove was roughly .125.

If the bung in the front pipe was installed about .250 "higher" (closer to the flanged end), or if had been installed at a slightly different angle (towards the motor) there would be plenty of clearance.  I have attached a couple of pictures of the installation after milling clearance in the cast oil cooler adapter.

Of course, anyone with a SE Ultra Classic, or anyone with an 07 touring bike that installs the oil cooler who also wants to run with 02 sensors is going to encounter this problem.

Thought you should know....thanks  

Scott Dunbar



Thank you for this information Scott. As a thank you I would like to send you a shirt. What size do you wear?

Thank you,

Jennifer Eagle

Sales Manager-Harley/Metric Cruisers, Sport /Utility ATV's, Sport Bikes

530-477-7490 x208

www.bub.com

Scott,

It is at this point, that I would call out there and find Jennifer and have her get in touch with Jim in Tech Support. Jim said he wasn't aware of the problem, but he did also say that he has only been there about 1 month. I also sent a second email with pictures of copout221's install because it showed the sensor slammed against the adapter.

If all of these people, that say they haven't ever heard of any problems, get together, they can no longer use that line and have to at least admit to the problem.

They won't do a damn thing about it unless it gets uncomfortable for them. When they see the problem as hurting their sales, then they will sit up and take it seriously, otherwise its easier and cheaper to ignore it.

I've got your back on this, and together we can acomplish more than if we all operate individually.

Good luck,

Chief

[Chief]

I'd send them back and get the V&H headpipes (if you confirm that they'll accomodate the Bosch sensors). If you like the RH sound, use their slip-ons with the V&H pipes. Otherwise use another exhaust. Not sure what other work you've done to the bike, but those RH stepped headers shouldn't make a significant difference unless you've made extensive engine mods. If you modify the RH pipes you'll probably void their warranty too! Hoist!  8-)

Hoist,

I haven't bought anything yet. This is all in anticipation of buying pipes. I'm getting involved here because I'm pretty good at pursuing these things like "white on rice". I'm hopeful that making them aware of the scope of the problem, and the benefit of fixing it, will result in the right thing being done.

I am an optimist, and so far, think BUB is very interested in doing the right thing. If they do the right thing, I will reward that with a purchase of their pipes. If not, I'll buy a set of V&H and make sure others are aware of the problem they will encounter if they use the Rineharts on their 2007's. I pretty sure Vance & Hines would appreciate this.

BUB can make it right with a very simple change.

Chief

[Hoist!]

Hoist,

I haven't bought anything yet. This is all in anticipation of buying pipes. I'm getting involved here because I'm pretty good at pursuing these things like "white on rice". I'm hopeful that making them aware of the scope of the problem, and the benefit of fixing it, will result in the right thing being done.

I am an optimist, and so far, think BUB is very interested in doing the right thing. If they do the right thing, I will reward that with a purchase of their pipes. If not, I'll buy a set of V&H and make sure others are aware of the problem they will encounter if they use the Rineharts on their 2007's. I pretty sure Vance & Hines would appreciate this.

BUB can make it right with a very simple change.

Chief

Hey Chief, how are you? How you liking the new ride? I was suggesting that CO send them back. I know you did the slip-on swap. I also suggested that you all look at stock size TDs giving much more muffler selection flexibility in general. If you're up for it, I agree about staying on RH's case. I'm like a pit bull too when necessary. But frankly, pipe sizes being equal, pipes are pipes. That's why it seemed easier to use a stock size instead of the stepped. At least this is one less thing I'll be dealing with! Take care Chief

[Midnight Rider]

The other problem with the Terry unit is that you have to cut and splice the wiring - no factory type connectors like the Daytona Twin Tech or Zippers ThunderMax units.

Jerry

Noticed that too, Jerry...not a good thing when it would be so simple to offer the other.

[Chief]

Hey Chief, how are you? How you liking the new ride? I was suggesting that CO send them back. I know you did the slip-on swap. I also suggested that you all look at stock size TDs giving much more muffler selection flexibility in general. If you're up for it, I agree about staying on RH's case. I'm like a pit bull too when necessary. But frankly, pipe sizes being equal, pipes are pipes. That's why it seemed easier to use a stock size instead of the stepped. At least this is one less thing I'll be dealing with! Take care Chief

I'm digging the new ride. not quite boken in yet, but still liking it a lot. Can't wait til I can get into it good and really see what she's got, but for now, I'll just have to be happy with taking it easy on her. Just give me one more day like this past Saturday, and I'll be 500+.

As for the pipes, I've heard bad things about the V&H bung location where that one put the sensor near, or in direct conflict with the starter when using the long sensors. Just can't seem to find a set that works right.

Since I found a source of 45 degree bungs, I may get some pipes without bungs and get them welded up myself and be done with it, but then what would I do with all of my time? Oh yeah, I'd be out riding.

Chief

[RedDevil]

I generally agree, as I stated in my first post in this thread. But when looking at the photos, it appears that RH can do a better job locating these things without degradation of their design whatsoever. That's a lame location and angle for the bungs, when there's space to have it reconfigured for a broader range of applications. That's why I suggested contacting RH in my second post here. Performance mods will require custom work much of the time, [highlight]but I don't think it's asking too much for these bungs to be rexamined by them.[/highlight] That's MO on this. Hoist!  8-)

Agree with you 100% on that Hoist. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] However, the response from Bub shows that they apparently aren't going to address it.  (At least not at this time.)  Economics drives innovation.  If they start losing customers (money) to other manufacturers that do "have it right", that will usually cause the situation to change.  That, however, doesn't do any of us that are experiencing the problem now, any good.  Guess that's why I'm glad I went with V&H duals.  I'm happier than a "pig in mud".    
Red

[Chief]

Agree with you 100% on that Hoist. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Guess that's why I'm glad I went with V&H duals.  I'm happier than a "pig in mud".    
Red

Ok you muddy pig. Can you provide a picture of the rear sensor bung of the V&H pipes. I was told that the location the chose on their pipes conflicted with the starter. Can you confirm or deny that claim.

Thanks,

Chief

[hard10]

I really wanted the RH's. One of the problems is that some dealers have already ordered these pipes to have on hand for customers. Case in point is Cox's. I know they have them in stock. I guess I'll have to order the V&H's to keep the sensors or let the dealer worry about relocating them. I'm sure the dealer does not read this so I wonder what is going to happen when they go to install the pipes they already have? I wonder if they know about it?

[Midnight Rider]

I really wanted the RH's. One of the problems is that some dealers have already ordered these pipes to have on hand for customers. Case in point is Cox's. I know they have them in stock. I guess I'll have to order the V&H's to keep the sensors or let the dealer worry about relocating them. I'm sure the dealer does not read this so I wonder what is going to happen when they go to install the pipes they already have? I wonder if they know about it?

Are some issues being confused here?  Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but the stock sensors work in the RH's and the V&H headers, right?  It's the longer O2 sensors on the Zipper's Auto Tune that are the issue on the front RH pipe, or did I miss something?  Do the longer O2 sensors work on the V&H on both front and rear pipes?

[kojak]

Stock sensors were not an issue for my RH install!

[110tHunDer]

Are some issues being confused here?  Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but the stock sensors work in the RH's and the V&H headers, right?  It's the longer O2 sensors on the Zipper's Auto Tune that are the issue on the front RH pipe, or did I miss something?  Do the longer O2 sensors work on the V&H on both front and rear pipes?

I think the O² sensor and brake pedal issues are becoming confused.  Stock O² sensors won't be a problem with the Rineharts, but it sounds like it's hit and miss (no pun intended) with the stock billet brake pedal.

[RedDevil]

Ok you muddy pig. Can you provide a picture of the rear sensor bung of the V&H pipes. I was told that the location the chose on their pipes conflicted with the starter. Can you confirm or deny that claim.

Thanks,

Chief

Chief,
I can't provide a pic at this time, as I'm out of town on a business trip in Arizona (wish I had my ride here   ) and won't get back to VA until Saturday, but I have visually sighted the rear and front O² sensors and there isn't a clearance problem on either.  Now, I have the stock sensors and not the wideband ones.  But as I stated in a previous entry that when the comment was made that V&H had problems with the wideband sensors on the rear pipe, I thought that was an interesting observation because looking at my rear pipe there appears to be quite a bit of clearance.  I don't know how much longer the wideband sensors are over the stock narrowband one, but my V&H pipes had no problems with clearance with the O² sensors.  Or the rear brake lever either.  I make no claims that the wideband sensor will clear, but there appears to be plenty of room.  I'm not an expert by any means, but is there quantifiable data or has anyone determined exactly what major benefit there is to putting the wideband sensors on, over the narrowband sensors, does for our bikes?   I need a basic wideband/narrowband sensor 101 here, I guess.   :-/ [smiley=confused5.gif]
Red

[hdfatboy]

Are some issues being confused here?  Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but the stock sensors work in the RH's and the V&H headers, right?  It's the longer O2 sensors on the Zipper's Auto Tune that are the issue on the front RH pipe, or did I miss something?  Do the longer O2 sensors work on the V&H on both front and rear pipes?

I installed the Rineharts on my '07 CUSE2 w/factory O2 sensors and had no issues. It is with the longer, Zippers/Bosch sensors that you may have an issue with both the trans top cover and oil cooler mount. I had no issue with the brake lever either. I mentioned earlier that some early versions of the RH True Duals had some inconsistencies with O2 sensor bungs & also some very late '06 pipes were making it into '07 packaging (although bungs were in relatively the same place and the brackets for the rear pipe were different to accomodate the new trans) Just verify the part numbers when ordering. I also had the V&H on my bike with no issues with them either.

[Twolanerider]

but is there quantifiable data or has anyone determined exactly what major benefit there is to putting the wideband sensors on, over the narrowband sensors, does for our bikes?  

RD, the wide band sensor should not and could not be used on a bike with the stock ignition system in place.  They are only part of an aftermarket replacement or addition to the stock system.  You'd not be changing the sensors just on their own.

[RedDevil]

RD, the wide band sensor should not and could not be used on a bike with the stock ignition system in place.  They are only part of an aftermarket replacement or addition to the stock system.  You'd not be changing the sensors just on their own.

Twolane,
Appreciate that info.    But what benefit is gained from switching out the ECU and narrowband sensors with say the Zippers and the Wideband sensors?   Is there a noticeable difference in performance, gas mileage, etc.  I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I really don't understand what the benefit is to switch everything out.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red