Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Twolanerider]

Twolane,
Appreciate that info.    But what benefit is gained from switching out the ECU and narrowband sensors with say the Zippers and the Wideband sensors?   Is there a noticeable difference in performance, gas mileage, etc.  I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, I really don't understand what the benefit is to switch everything out.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red

The short and skinny might be described as follows.  The stock system using narrow band controls receive signals from the sensors that are (basically) on/off (i.e., in or out of range).  They also do this at only certain RPM ranges and load factors.  Outside those RPM ranges or load factors the system is the same as it's always been.  It is the same as it's always been a good amount of the time.

The Thundermax w/autotune system (for this example) with its wide band sensors offers more than just in/out of range data from the sensors and does it all the time under all load conditons.  In other words the system is managing for us all the time as opposed to a surprisingly small part of it.

There are many other differences between the Thundermax ECM and the stock ECM.  But so far as active fuel/ignition system management with the tuning functions as discussed here that is really the crux of it.

[RedDevil]

The short and skinny might be described as follows.  The stock system using narrow band controls receive signals from the sensors that are (basically) on/off (i.e., in or out of range).  They also do this at only certain RPM ranges and load factors.  Outside those RPM ranges or load factors the system is the same as it's always been.  It is the same as it's always been a good amount of the time.

The Thundermax w/autotune system (for this example) with its wide band sensors offers more than just in/out of range data from the sensors and does it all the time under all load conditons.  In other words the system is managing for us all the time as opposed to a surprisingly small part of it.

There are many other differences between the Thundermax ECM and the stock ECM.  But so far as active fuel/ignition system management with the tuning functions as discussed here that is really the crux of it.

Thanks Twolane...appreciate the explanation, that clears things up some for me. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[copout221]

   Spoke with Zippers who offered to take the Thundermax and Autotune kit back without question and were very sorry about all the trouble I have been experiencing. EPC who were very vague about my questions about returning the pipes and referred me to BUB for a resolution. NEVER heard back from Rinehart even though they did read my e-mail early this morning. Just goes to show, after some vendors have your money they turn their backs on you...NICE. The only company I will recommend at this point is Zippers who even offered to send me a new bung at no cost.

[SilverDawg]

Sorry to hear about your issues.

If it matters at all, I have definitely decided against the RH's for several reasons, one being this substandard customer service you have been experiencing, along with their fitment issues on our 110's.

Also, Eastern Performance was on my list to order my V & H slip ons.  I may now look to another source.

Not that these folks care, but at least they cannot say these boards do not have an influence on buyer behavior.

p.s.  Not bashing RH at all.  Still like the look and sound, but I want a company that stands behind their product.

[110tHunDer]

Sorry to hear about your issues.

If it matters at all, I have definitely decided against the RH's for several reasons, one being this substandard customer service you have been experiencing, along with their fitment issues on our 110's.

Also, Eastern Performance was on my list to order my [highlight]V & H[/highlight] slip ons.  I may now look to another source.

Not that these folks care, but at least they cannot say these boards do not have an influence on buyer behavior.

p.s.  Not bashing RH at all.  Still like the look and sound, but [highlight]I want a company that stands behind their product.[/highlight]

It seems no one is perfect: http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1166631714

[copout221]

Sorry to hear about your issues.

If it matters at all, I have definitely decided against the RH's for several reasons, one being this substandard customer service you have been experiencing, along with their fitment issues on our 110's.

Also, Eastern Performance was on my list to order my V & H slip ons.  I may now look to another source.

Not that these folks care, but at least they cannot say these boards do not have an influence on buyer behavior.

p.s.  Not bashing RH at all.  Still like the look and sound, but I want a company that stands behind their product.

I am going to actually call Rinehart tomorrow and inquire as to why they did not respond to my e-mail. If they somehow redeem themselves I will update this forum.

[Chief]

Chief,
I can't provide a pic at this time, as I'm out of town on a business trip in Arizona (wish I had my ride here   ) and won't get back to VA until Saturday, but I have visually sighted the rear and front O² sensors and there isn't a clearance problem on either.  Now, I have the stock sensors and not the wideband ones.  But as I stated in a previous entry that when the comment was made that V&H had problems with the wideband sensors on the rear pipe, I thought that was an interesting observation because looking at my rear pipe there appears to be quite a bit of clearance.  I don't know how much longer the wideband sensors are over the stock narrowband one, but my V&H pipes had no problems with clearance with the O² sensors.  Or the rear brake lever either.  I make no claims that the wideband sensor will clear, but there appears to be plenty of room.  I'm not an expert by any means, but is there quantifiable data or has anyone determined exactly what major benefit there is to putting the wideband sensors on, over the narrowband sensors, does for our bikes?   I need a basic wideband/narrowband sensor 101 here, I guess.   :-/ [smiley=confused5.gif]
Red
 

Red,

No problem on the time delay. If you could post some pics when you get back, that would be just great.

As for your question on the wideband -v- narrowband sensors. Twolane has it right, unless you choose a unit that uses the wideband sensor, you wouldn't change.

For me, I need the wideband sensors because I have the Daytona Sensors Twin Scan unit which uses the wideband sensors to measure the air / fuel ratio in the pipes so I can tune my Power Commander at home. This unit allows me to do the same type of tuning that is done on a dyno, as often and as many times as I want.

I like to monkey around with things, and with this unit, I will find myself like a "pig in mud", to steal the perfect phrase from you. I can make changes to the motor and then get it tuned without going to a dyno and paying for a full tune. Eventually, I will get a unit like the Zippers Auto-Tune, but this will do in the meantime. Plus, I have other buddies running Power Commanders and SERTs, and this unit can be used on any bike to tune those units dyno-free too, so I am looking to recoup the initial cost with rental income.

I'll post a more thorough report when it all comes together.

Enjoy AZ,

Chief

[Chief]

I am going to actually call Rinehart tomorrow and inquire as to why they did not respond to my e-mail. If they somehow redeem themselves I will update this forum.

CO,

If I may suggest something, try to get hold of Jim in Tech Support at Rinehart. I spoke to Jim at length yesterday and he was great. He called me back twice with updates on what he was hearing.

Unfortunately, he was hearing that the manfacturing department in Janesville, Wisconsin was aware of the problem and was not going to address it. They don't believe enough people are impacted to require a change. I feel if they see this decision as having a negative impact on their sales, corporate may step in and request manufacturing to rethink their position. Does anyone have a relationship with Denis Manning, or any other higher ups at BUB?

I also sent an email to BUB yesterday as a follow-up to my phone conversation with Jim. As of yet, I have not heard back.

To get them to move on this, we need to make it a bigger issue for them. If there is some way to get one of the rags to put the Zippers Auto-Tune into a set of Rineharts on a CVO bike, that would be enough to get their attention and get them to switch to the angled bung like the MoCo uses in the stock pipes. It's not a re-design that is needed, just a simple part substitution with a small tooling change.

I don't think that is too much to ask. But who am I?

Go get 'em CO!!!

Chief

[SilverDawg]

It seems no one is perfect: http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1166631714

Understand, but I currently have  V & H's on my Heritage, and have had no issues.  It can happen with any company.  Too bad it has to be this way, but sometimes customer service is indeed lip service.

[RedDevil]

Red,

No problem on the time delay. If you could post some pics when you get back, that would be just great.

As for your question on the wideband -v- narrowband sensors. Twolane has it right, unless you choose a unit that uses the wideband sensor, you wouldn't change.

For me, I need the wideband sensors because I have the Daytona Sensors Twin Scan unit which uses the wideband sensors to measure the air / fuel ratio in the pipes so I can tune my Power Commander at home. This unit allows me to do the same type of tuning that is done on a dyno, as often and as many times as I want.

I like to monkey around with things, and with this unit, I will find myself like a "pig in mud", to steal the perfect phrase from you. I can make changes to the motor and then get it tuned without going to a dyno and paying for a full tune. Eventually, I will get a unit like the Zippers Auto-Tune, but this will do in the meantime. Plus, I have other buddies running Power Commanders and SERTs, and this unit can be used on any bike to tune those units dyno-free too, so I am looking to recoup the initial cost with rental income.

I'll post a more thorough report when it all comes together.

Enjoy AZ,

Chief

Chief,
I'll be sure to do that.  That's another item on the "to do" list for the forum when I get my bike back from the shop.    Thanks for great explanation, between Twolane's and yours I have a pretty good understanding of the benefits.  I didn't know that with that setup you can basically skip the dyno and let these units do the tuning.  Me thinks I may have to put that on my list of "want to haves".  (like that isn't already a mile long   )  
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[RedDevil]

Sorry to hear about your issues.

If it matters at all, I have definitely decided against the RH's for several reasons, one being this substandard customer service you have been experiencing, along with their fitment issues on our 110's.

Also, Eastern Performance was on my list to order my V & H slip ons.  I may now look to another source.

Not that these folks care, but at least they cannot say these boards do not have an influence on buyer behavior.

p.s.  Not bashing RH at all.  Still like the look and sound, but I want a company that stands behind their product.

I might recommend that you give V&H's or Bassani's (or others) tech support a call and ask them if they have heard or know of any fitment issues with their header pipes before deciding.  (the answer may be no, or not that we know of) It may save some problems.  Don't forget to talk about both sensor areas.  Can anyone tell me how much longer the Bosch sensor are over the stock ones, that might give me an idea when I look at my bike to give a more accurate assesment as to whether they will fit with no clearance issues on V&H headers.  Thanks  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[Hoist!]

Just curious. Will the Bosch O2 Sensors for the AutoTune fit the Factory Headpipe Sensor Bungs properly, without interference when installed? Hoist!  8-)

[Chief]

Chief,
I'll be sure to do that.  That's another item on the "to do" list for the forum when I get my bike back from the shop.    Thanks for great explanation, between Twolane's and yours I have a pretty good understanding of the benefits.  I didn't know that with that setup you can basically skip the dyno and let these units do the tuning.  Me thinks I may have to put that on my list of "want to haves".  (like that isn't already a mile long   )  
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

I hope I didn't confuse things, but in case I did, let me attempt to clear things up a bit.

As far as I know, there are only 3 automatic units out there, Zippers Auto-tune, Daytona Twin-Tec and the Terry's unit. The Zippers unit seems to have the advantage right now at being the simplest to use and from what I have heard, the users are getting good results.

The unit I have ordered, is not an auto tuning unit, but merely an exhaust gas analyzer that will give me A/F ratios that I can use to help me adjust the PC manually. Now, the unit will give me the information in nice pretty grids of throttle position and RPM just like the grids that are used for adjusting the PC. For the SERT, a different grid is used that matches the input for the SERT.

In principal, the unit records the A/F ratio as you are riding and builds a "MAP" showing the recorded A/F ratios at different throttle / RPM settings. The data is then downloaded from the unit onto a laptop and then the resulting map can be reviewed.

By reviewing the A/F map on the computer, I will be able to see where the bike is running lean, rich, or right on. Using that information, I will be able to add, subtract or leave alone the fuel being sent to the motor at the specific RPM / Throttle settings. I will make adjustments to the fuel map, upload it to the Power Commander, or SERT, and then go ride again to check the result. This process would probably have to be repeated a couple of times, especially until I can get a feel for how much fuel it takes to bump AFR a certain amount.

Sounds simple huh? The problem with this process, and what takes a lot of time, is getting enough data to build a good AFR map. Its easier on the dyno because the operator can set a constant speed on the dyno and then move the throttle keeping the RPM constant. This is harder to do while riding the bike.

Maybe I need to harness the bike to the front of the truck and use the truck to set the speed and let me ride the bike to work the throttle. Does anyone see a problem with that?  [smiley=worthless.gif]

I hope this long-winded explanation cleared up any confusion my earlier post may have created.

Chief

[Chief]

Just curious. Will the Bosch O2 Sensors for the AutoTune fit the Factory Headpipe Sensor Bungs properly, without interference when installed? Hoist!  8-)

Definite yes.

The factory sensor arrangement has them mounted horizontally, a couple of inches above the OC adapter. No conflict at all. That's why the Rinehart fix is so simple, just do it like Harley did it.

Picture shows no conflict, regardless how long the sensor is.

Chief

[Hoist!]

Definite yes.

The factory sensor arrangement has them mounted horizontally, a couple of inches above the OC adapter. No conflict at all. That's why the Rinehart fix is so simple, just do it like Harley did it.

Picture shows no conflict, regardless how long the sensor is.

Chief

Thanks Chief. This looks like a no-brainer on RH's part. I think the dynamics of this group can convince them to fix this. Good luck with them guys! Hoist!  8-)