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[copout221]

I hope I didn't confuse things, but in case I did, let me attempt to clear things up a bit.

As far as I know, there are only 3 automatic units out there, Zippers Auto-tune, Daytona Twin-Tec and the Terry's unit. The Zippers unit seems to have the advantage right now at being the simplest to use and from what I have heard, the users are getting good results.

The unit I have ordered, is not an auto tuning unit, but merely an exhaust gas analyzer that will give me A/F ratios that I can use to help me adjust the PC manually. Now, the unit will give me the information in nice pretty grids of throttle position and RPM just like the grids that are used for adjusting the PC. For the SERT, a different grid is used that matches the input for the SERT.

In principal, the unit records the A/F ratio as you are riding and builds a "MAP" showing the recorded A/F ratios at different throttle / RPM settings. The data is then downloaded from the unit onto a laptop and then the resulting map can be reviewed.

By reviewing the A/F map on the computer, I will be able to see where the bike is running lean, rich, or right on. Using that information, I will be able to add, subtract or leave alone the fuel being sent to the motor at the specific RPM / Throttle settings. I will make adjustments to the fuel map, upload it to the Power Commander, or SERT, and then go ride again to check the result. This process would probably have to be repeated a couple of times, especially until I can get a feel for how much fuel it takes to bump AFR a certain amount.

Sounds simple huh? The problem with this process, and what takes a lot of time, is getting enough data to build a good AFR map. Its easier on the dyno because the operator can set a constant speed on the dyno and then move the throttle keeping the RPM constant. This is harder to do while riding the bike.

Maybe I need to harness the bike to the front of the truck and use the truck to set the speed and let me ride the bike to work the throttle. Does anyone see a problem with that?  [smiley=worthless.gif]

I hope this long-winded explanation cleared up any confusion my earlier post may have created.

Chief

I originally purchased the same kit you are referring to and returned it unused. It was just too much work and required too much time to get a map that was NOT 100%, or as close to 100%. I did not like the idea of swapping out hard to get to O2 sensors every time I wanted to revise or change the mapping. In addition, there was not constant monitoring which is a huge advantage to the Zippers kit. Additionally, the kit you are referring to includes the same Bosch 5 wire sensors that the Zippers kit includes and the front O2 sensor is a PITA to get in and out. Lastly, that kit has two modules that must be connected (including a switched power and dedicated ground) and placed somewhere on the bike while you ride it. You cannot get accurate feedback if you don't load test the bike (dyno,ride,etc) which will most likely require several runs with this kit and it's wiring hanging off your bike. One more thing, read the instruction manual, it is pretty complicated and involved if you want to do it right. For $500.00 why not spend a few hundred more for an autotuning system that can be installed and left alone!!! Just my .02 on the matter.  The Zippers kit is easy to setup (unless you buy RH pipes  ) and much less confusing than the kit you are referring to. IF THE KIT YOU PURCHASED IS NOT THE SAME ONE I AM REFERRING TO PLEASE DISCARD MY RANT ABOVE.  

[Chief]

I originally purchased the same kit you are referring to and returned it unused. It was just too much work and required too much time to get a map that was NOT 100%, or as close to 100%. [highlight]I did not like the idea of swapping out hard to get to O2 sensors every time I wanted to revise or change the mapping.[/highlight] In addition, there was not constant monitoring which is a huge advantage to the Zippers kit. Additionally, the kit you are referring to includes the same Bosch 5 wire sensors that the Zippers kit includes and the front O2 sensor is a PITA to get in and out. Lastly, that kit has two modules that must be connected (including a switched power and dedicated ground) and placed somewhere on the bike while you ride it. You cannot get accurate feedback if you don't load test the bike (dyno,ride,etc) which will most likely require several runs with this kit and it's wiring hanging off your bike. One more thing, read the instruction manual, it is pretty complicated and involved if you want to do it right. For $500.00 why not spend a few hundred more for an autotuning system that can be installed and left alone!!! Just my .02 on the matter.  The Zippers kit is easy to setup (unless you buy RH pipes  ) and much less confusing than the kit you are referring to. IF THE KIT YOU PURCHASED IS NOT THE SAME ONE I AM REFERRING TO PLEASE DISCARD MY RANT ABOVE.  

CO,

I had read your post last week or so about returning the Daytona Twin Scan. I agree that it will be a lot of work, but any work I can do while in the saddle has to be more fun than the work I do in front of a desk. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

About swapping out the sensors. Why would you swap them in and out? In my case, using the PC with the O2 eliminators, I will only have them in for tuning, the rest of the time, the bungs will be plugged and sealed. And since I am still using the stock headpipes, the installation and removal of the sensors will be a piece of cake. I know there is a problem with the Rineharts, and that is why I'm giving Bub the full-court press to remedy the situation, before I buy their pipes.

I assumed that the SERT would cause the ECM to ignore the O2 sensors, making them useless, or if it still tries to use them, the same eliminators that are used with the Power Commander could be used so the sensors could be removed and the plugs installed. does anyone know about this for sure. As far as I know, the only time the stock sensors are used is when the stock ECM is used without the SERT or the PC. Does anyone have any information on this?  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I'm just curious, because mine are coming out and the holes will be plugged.

As for going with the PC and the Twin Scan, lets just say that I listened to my good man Hoist.

I originally was going to use the Zippers Auto-Tune for the obvious reasons, but since I will be doing my own installs and not paying a dealer xtra just in the hopes of maintaining a warranty, I wanted to be able to return the bike to stock configuration just to minimize potential warranty issues. There is a chance the ECM knows the PC is there, but that question has never been conclusively answered here.

I want an Auto Tuning ignition, but will be waiting awhile to get one. The route I have chosen is a compromise, and that's OK for now. It may not be when I actually get the Twin-Scan and hook it up. Thanks for the warning about the instructions.

Chief

[Twolanerider]

I didn't know that with that setup you can basically skip the dyno and let these units do the tuning.  Me thinks I may have to put that on my list of "want to haves".  (like that isn't already a mile long   )  
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

RD, what you're describing there is the biggest reason I went to the Thundermax w/autotune.  The tool Chief described is apparently a great tool for dialing in a bike at home after you make changes if you enjoy the process.  But it is quite a process.  Quite frankly I'm lazier than that.  With the T-Max and it's closed loop setup on board the bike dials itself in.  All the time.  Everytime.

Not only is the bike effectively constantly self tuning all the time it's being ridden, if I get a wild hair to change pipes or do other system changes the bike will adjust itself to them (within limits).  No more dyno visits or no more deciding against changing something because I don't also want to add a dyno charge on to the cost of the change.  Self-management by the onboard system makes the bike even more palatable for a lazy guy like me.

[Twolanerider]

Definite yes.

The factory sensor arrangement has them mounted horizontally, a couple of inches above the OC adapter. No conflict at all. That's why the Rinehart fix is so simple, just do it like Harley did it.

Picture shows no conflict, regardless how long the sensor is.

Chief

Goofy thing is that even with flat bungs they didn't have to create a problem.  Just have to be careful with placement.  I used flat bungs on the red bike's pipes.  Plenty of clearance for both front and rear without issue of any kind.  Just have to take a moment and actually see where to put the darned things.

[Chief]

RD, what you're describing there is the biggest reason I went to the Thundermax w/autotune.  The tool Chief described is apparently a great tool for dialing in a bike at home after you make changes.  Quite frankly I'm lazier than that.  With the T-Max and it's closed loop setup on board the bike dials in itself.  All the time.  Everytime.

Not only is the bike effectively constantly self tuning all the time it's being ridden, if I get a wild hair to change pipes or do other system changes the bike will adjust itself to them (within limits).  No more dyno visits or no more deciding against changing something because I don't also want to add a dyno charge on to the cost of the change.  Self-management by the onboard system makes the bike even more palatable for a lazy guy like me.

Stop it Don!!! Stop making me want to change my mind and get the Zippers Auto Tune again!!! I've been round 'n round this before, and I want the Auto-Tune, but I bought the other one. So stop making me question myself. Only funnin' you here.

I did see earlier on, that JK says the Compression Release problem looks like it will be fixed soon. Any idea if they've got the TSSM bugs worked out yet? Those two issues also helped me go in the PC / Twin Scan route. I want to give the closed loop systems some time to gel before jumping in with both feet.

I will be very interested to see what happens at V-Twin in Feb. Maybe more closed-loop systems to tempt my money then.

Chief

[Chief]

Goofy thing is that even with flat bungs they didn't have to create a problem.  Just have to be careful with placement.  I used flat bungs on the red bike's pipes.  Plenty of clearance for both front and rear without issue of any kind.  [highlight]Just have to take a moment and actually see where to put the darned things[/highlight].

Well there ya go, talking logically again.

Chief

[Twolanerider]

Stop it Don!!! Stop making me want to change my mind and get the Zippers Auto Tune again!!! I've been round 'n round this before, and I want the Auto-Tune, but I bought the other one. So stop making me question myself. Only funnin' oyu here.

I did see earlier on, that JK says the Compression Release problem looks like it will be fixed soon. Any idea if they've got the TSSM bugs worked out yet? Those to issues also helped me go in the PC / Twin Scan route. I want to give the closed loop systems some time to gel before jumping in with both feet.

I will be very interested to see what happens at V-Twin in Feb. Maybe more closed-loop systems to tempt my money then.

Chief

Chief, the latest I remember reading is that their compression release solution was "a couple weeks" away and currently in production.  And that was just a few days ago.  So assuming no bugs or glitches they are hopefully very close on that.  

If I'm not mistaken the TSSM issue wasn't with current models though.  Only time I remember that biting someone (Ironhorse I think) was with installation on a Marelli conversion.  On my own 05 bike the timing of when cancelling occurs is actually a bit different from OE.  But it happens without problem.  So no problem on my 05.

[Chief]

On my own 05 bike the timing of when cancelling occurs is actually a bit different from OE.  But it happens without problem.  So no problem on my 05.

Good to know.

Thanks,

Chief

[copout221]

CO,

I had read your post last week or so about returning the Daytona Twin Scan. I agree that it will be a lot of work, but any work I can do while in the saddle has to be more fun than the work I do in front of a desk. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

About swapping out the sensors. Why would you swap them in and out? In my case, [highlight]using the PC with the O2 eliminators[/highlight], I will only have them in for tuning, the rest of the time, the bungs will be plugged and sealed. And [highlight]since I am still using the stock headpipes, the installation and removal of the sensors will be a piece of cake.[/highlight] I know there is a problem with the Rineharts, and that is why I'm giving Bub the full-court press to remedy the situation, before I buy their pipes.

I assumed that the SERT would cause the ECM to ignore the O2 sensors, making them useless, or if it still tries to use them, the same eliminators that are used with the Power Commander could be used so the sensors could be removed and the plugs installed. does anyone know about this for sure. As far as I know, the only time the stock sensors are used is when the stock ECM is used without the SERT or the PC. Does anyone have any information on this?  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I'm just curious, because mine are coming out and the holes will be plugged.

As for going with the PC and the Twin Scan, lets just say that I listened to my good man Hoist.

I originally was going to use the Zippers Auto-Tune for the obvious reasons, but since I will be doing my own installs and not paying a dealer xtra just in the hopes of maintaining a warranty, I wanted to be able to return the bike to stock configuration just to minimize potential warranty issues. There is a chance the ECM knows the PC is there, but that question has never been conclusively answered here.

I want an Auto Tuning ignition, but will be waiting awhile to get one. The route I have chosen is a compromise, and that's OK for now. It may not be when I actually get the Twin-Scan and hook it up. Thanks for the warning about the instructions.

Chief

Chief,

I didn't realize you were going with the PC. From what I have read on these forums it seems most people are not using or considering the PC anymore with the new bikes due to the technology available using the O2 ports. My mistake, I thought you were going to use the SERT. From what I have read in the SERT manual you can still utilize the stock open loop system (very limited to + /- .5 on the AFR ) if you leave the AFR settings at 14.7 but tune the VE tables to whatever you want. I may be mistaken on that. In addition, I was unaware you were sticking with the stock head pipes. That makes a huge difference for removing and installing the O2 sensors. Where you planning on leaving the DTT O2 sensors in all the time with the O2 sensor eliminators installed ? If so, I thought DTT discourages that because it can potentially damage the sensors if left in unneccesarily.

For those of you who don't already know, Zippers is shipping instructions on how to disable the ACR on the 110 bikes which are included in the kits (very easy to do). My bike fires up with no problems and I have no engine light or trouble codes being set. Just for information.

[Midnight Rider]

CO,

I had read your post last week or so about returning the Daytona Twin Scan. I agree that it will be a lot of work, but any work I can do while in the saddle has to be more fun than the work I do in front of a desk. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

About swapping out the sensors. Why would you swap them in and out? In my case, using the PC with the O2 eliminators, I will only have them in for tuning, the rest of the time, the bungs will be plugged and sealed. And since I am still using the stock headpipes, the installation and removal of the sensors will be a piece of cake. I know there is a problem with the Rineharts, and that is why I'm giving Bub the full-court press to remedy the situation, before I buy their pipes.

I assumed that the SERT would cause the ECM to ignore the O2 sensors, making them useless, or if it still tries to use them, the same eliminators that are used with the Power Commander could be used so the sensors could be removed and the plugs installed. does anyone know about this for sure. As far as I know, the only time the stock sensors are used is when the stock ECM is used without the SERT or the PC. Does anyone have any information on this?  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I'm just curious, because mine are coming out and the holes will be plugged.

As for going with the PC and the Twin Scan, lets just say that I listened to my good man Hoist.

I originally was going to use the Zippers Auto-Tune for the obvious reasons, but since I will be doing my own installs and not paying a dealer xtra just in the hopes of maintaining a warranty, I wanted to be able to return the bike to stock configuration just to minimize potential warranty issues. There is a chance the ECM knows the PC is there, but that question has never been conclusively answered here.

I want an Auto Tuning ignition, but will be waiting awhile to get one. The route I have chosen is a compromise, and that's OK for now. It may not be when I actually get the Twin-Scan and hook it up. Thanks for the warning about the instructions.

Chief

Chief, The SERT modification to the ECM does not do away with the stock O2 sensors and the part-of-the-time loop, it just sets new parameters around which it will operate, from my understanding and research on the subject.  The PC leaves no trace in the ECM of it's existence...the O2 eliminators just lie to the ECM, telling it they are there, when they really are not, so no codes would be set, provided the eliminators are not disconnected while the ECM is powered up (don't know if that would set a code or not, but might).

With what you're doing, removing the stock sensors and installing the PC components should present no problems, other than taking a while to get things tuned to your satisfaction.  I'm assuming you are going to start with some sort of "pretty close" MAP in the PC, and use the Twin Scan system to tweak the base map further, much the way one would do on a Dyno tune.  From my limited experience with the PC on my bike, Fuelmoto (there are also maps on Dynojet's home page for bikes) programmed the PC with a MAP for my former set-up with SE A/C and SE pro pipes...worked fine, just a bit rich, but not too rich to be worried about.  When I installed the RH's, Jamie at Fuelmoto e-mailed me a MAP for them which I dumped in.  Also ran fine, but was a bit rich as well...running from 12.4 to 12.8 on my bike.  Now that it's tuned, it's 12.8 to 13.2, depending on TP.  I'm getting 34-37mpg two up and loaded.

Really, the ultimate solution is the all the time closed loop system, but I certainly understand everybody's hesitation in completely replacing the factory ECM while the bike is still under warranty, not because the Thundermax doesn't work as designed, but simply because it would give HD a better excuse to hassle you over any warranty issues if they ever came up, because so many things feed through the ECM.  

We all know it's just a matter of time before HD has a closed loop system that operates all of the time, but it's probably still going to be so lean as to not be healthy for the longevity of the motor, and you can bet it won't be adjustable without paying them some money to do it for you, if at all. I would also predict that Dynojet will have a system out soon as well, but who knows what it will be, since their devices have never really completely replaced the ECM, just went along for the ride, whispering lies into it's ear....

[Hoist!]

[highlight]Stop it Don!!! Stop making me want to change my mind and get the Zippers Auto Tune again!!! I've been round 'n round this before, and I want the Auto-Tune, but I bought the other one. So stop making me question myself.[/highlight] Only funnin' you here.

I did see earlier on, that JK says the Compression Release problem looks like it will be fixed soon. Any idea if they've got the TSSM bugs worked out yet? Those two issues also helped me go in the PC / Twin Scan route. I want to give the closed loop systems some time to gel before jumping in with both feet.

I will be very interested to see what happens at V-Twin in Feb. Maybe more closed-loop systems to tempt my money then.

Chief

Now, now Chief, don't forget about your 2 Year Warranty! This is your Warranty conscience speaking! Hoist!  8-)

[Chief]

Chief,

I didn't realize you were going with the PC. [highlight]From what I have read on these forums it seems most people are not using or considering the PC anymore with the new bikes due to the technology available using the O2 ports.[/highlight]

I never got that impression. Unless you're using a unit like the Auto-Tune, the sensors are of questionable benefit anyway. They may even make things worse by allowing the ECM to lean the motor out further. I personally would install eliminators on a stock bike to prevent the ECM from leaning it out at all.

My mistake, I thought you were going to use the SERT. From what I have read in the SERT manual you can still utilize the stock open loop system (very limited to + /- .5 on the AFR ) [highlight]if you leave the AFR settings at 14.7[/highlight] but tune the VE tables to whatever you want. I may be mistaken on that..

In my book, 14.7 for an air-cooled motor is asking for trouble.

In addition, I was unaware you were sticking with the stock head pipes. That makes a huge difference for removing and installing the O2 sensors.

Absolutely. Until the problems with the sensor positioning is resolved, I'll either wait, or order a set without the bungs and have them installed myself.

Were you planning on leaving the DTT O2 sensors in all the time with the O2 sensor eliminators installed?

The eliminators are merely dummy plugs that go on the wires from the ECM they will stay on all the time. While tuning, I will install the wide-band sensors and remove them when not tuning. The Twin-Scan kit comes with threaded plugs for plugging the holes in the pipes when the sensors are removed.

If so, I thought DTT discourages that because it can potentially damage the sensors if left in unneccesarily.

I agree. My understanding is that the sensors should be powered if left in the exhaust stream. There is an internal heater that needs to be on to prevent fouling of the internals. If they're in the pipes, they need to be plugged in.

For those of you who don't already know, Zippers is shipping instructions on how to disable the ACR on the 110 bikes which are included in the kits (very easy to do). My bike fires up with no problems and I have no engine light or trouble codes being set. Just for information.

I hear they have fixed the problem. I haven't heard yet how the fix will be introduced as a revision, or a software patch. Hopefully you'll be able to get the fix and be able to use the ACR's; they may come in handy this summer.

Chief

[Chief]

Chief, The SERT modification to the ECM does not do away with the stock O2 sensors and the part-of-the-time loop, it just sets new parameters around which it will operate, from my understanding and research on the subject.

That's the part I don't fully understand. How do you account for the part-time leaning when you are developing a tune? Aren't you tuning for what you want it to be? If so, why allow the ECM to deviate from your target AFR? How much does it shift the AFR? Is it controllable? I would be more comfortable just eliminating the sensors so these questions don't have to be answered.

The PC leaves no trace in the ECM of it's existence...the O2 eliminators just lie to the ECM, telling it they are there, when they really are not, so no codes would be set, provided the eliminators are not disconnected while the ECM is powered up (don't know if that would set a code or not, but might).

DC Fireman had a post a couple of weeks ago alluding to the fact that the ECM may know the PC is there. I never saw any conclusive evidence either way. It's definintely nothing at all like the SERT branding the two together, but I have heard of some earlier problems with the PCIII USB causing some engine lights to come on. Once again, no conclusive proof. I'm operating from the assumption that it is invisible to the ECM.

With what you're doing, removing the stock sensors and installing the PC components should present no problems, other than taking a while to get things tuned to your satisfaction.  I'm assuming you are going to start with some sort of "pretty close" MAP in the PC, and use the Twin Scan system to tweak the base map further, much the way one would do on a Dyno tune.

Correct you are. Jamie at FuelMoto loaded the map for the 96" motor before he shipped it to me. My mileage was pretty good on Saturday, high 30's, but it does smell a bit rich at times. I'll get a better idea when the Twin Sccan gets here and I can find out fer sure.

 
From my limited experience with the PC on my bike, Fuelmoto (there are also maps on Dynojet's home page for bikes) programmed the PC with a MAP for my former set-up with SE A/C and SE pro pipes...worked fine, just a bit rich, but not too rich to be worried about.  When I installed the RH's, Jamie at Fuelmoto e-mailed me a MAP for them which I dumped in.  Also ran fine, but was a bit rich as well...running from 12.4 to 12.8 on my bike.  Now that it's tuned, it's 12.8 to 13.2, depending on TP.  I'm getting 34-37mpg two up and loaded.

I'll be happy with results like that. We can compare on the ride to Hot Springs. With permission from the ladies, maybe some 4th gear roll-ons could be performed, for scientific purposes only, of course.

Really, the ultimate solution is the all the time closed loop system, but I certainly understand everybody's hesitation in completely replacing the factory ECM while the bike is still under warranty, not because the Thundermax doesn't work as designed, but simply because it would give HD a better excuse to hassle you over any warranty issues if they ever came up, because so many things feed through the ECM.

In a nutshell, that is why I did not go with the ThunderMax / Auto-Tune for round 1. The PC was a compromise, but with owning a first year motor design, I didn't want to find myself in an uncomfortable, and possibly expensive position with an aftermarket ECM. Call me chicken.

 
We all know it's just a matter of time before HD has a closed loop system that operates all of the time, but it's probably still going to be so lean as to not be healthy for the longevity of the motor, and you can bet it won't be adjustable without paying them some money to do it for you, if at all. I would also predict that Dynojet will have a system out soon as well, but who knows what it will be, since their devices have never really completely replaced the ECM, just went along for the ride, whispering lies into it's ear....

I think the next couple of years will be interesting. The EPA is getting real tough, so something's got to give. If the new motors can't live up to the EPA requirements, where else can they go but to water cooled, and we all know they won't introduce that on a Sportster first.

Off Topic. Pinkie just got home and gives the  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] for the Hot Springs trip.

Chief

[RedDevil]

I think the next couple of years will be interesting. The EPA is getting real tough, so something's got to give. If the new motors can't live up to the EPA requirements, where else can they go but to water cooled, and we all know they won't introduce that on a Sportster first.

Chief

one of the Motorcycle rags...Cycle World I believe had some inside information, how they got that I'll never know, that there will be a water-cooled Sportster for the 2008 model year.  The beginning of the end is nigh, I fear.  

Red

[Chief]

one of the Motorcycle rags...Cycle World I believe had some inside information, how they got that I'll never know, that there will be a water-cooled Sportster for the 2008 model year.  The beginning of the end is nigh, I fear.  

Red

Well, I guess that shows you how much my logic is worth.

Chief