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[Buckeye_Tuning]

Knighty Knight is going to install transducers into his B2 heads.  THAT i would like to see.

I would like to have a semi stock bike I could drill out for the transducer.  Then be able to 'build' the engine in stages and have some REALLY nice timing maps.

[Steve Cole]

I love it, but will the transducer fit in an ACR hole?

With the right pieces. But you need more than just the cylinder pressure to make use of the information. You need to get at a minimum precise crankshaft position along with it and the HD crank trigger isn't good enough.

[hrdtail78]

With the right pieces. But you need more than just the cylinder pressure to make use of the information. You need to get at a minimum precise crankshaft position along with it and the HD crank trigger isn't good enough.

That is the exact thing that kept me from this a year and a half ago.

[hrdtail78]

https://www.box.com/s/l2ckdtkcd87a6p8fw6a4

You need to download the file.  Open Data Master, and then open data master file.  I don't know why this is.  Maybe it has to do with CAN data. 

Anyway, This is a 2013 dyna, 96, 48 cams, and RB racing pipe.  No heat shields.  Customer did not want rivnuts in his pipes for my Bay Area Performance adaptor kit.  So, probe up the pipe.  Yeah!  PE mode is on.  I didn't record this data for the test, but we can see that the voltage is stable and even follows along with PE mode.

My opinion might be biased, but test isn't.  I am not slamming the IAT, and have a reasonable timing table.

[FLTRI]

With the right pieces. But you need more than just the cylinder pressure to make use of the information. You need to get at a minimum precise crankshaft position along with it and the HD crank trigger isn't good enough.

If tuning live can timing move and watch live pressure changes? Or can it only be read in a log later?
Bob

[turboprop]

With the right pieces. But you need more than just the cylinder pressure to make use of the information. You need to get at a minimum precise crankshaft position along with it and the HD crank trigger isn't good enough.

Interesting. Crankshaft position sensor accuracy is something that the usual forum 'tuning debaters' do not hypothesize about very much. Can't wait to see what the two-bike wonder has to say.

[Steve Cole]

Interesting. Crankshaft position sensor accuracy is something that the usual forum 'tuning debaters' do not hypothesize about very much. Can't wait to see what the two-bike wonder has to say.

It's no different than those who have claimed hundreds of tunes and refuse to use and learn the system and new tools. The bottom line is many that don't have hundreds of tunes under there belts are much more willing to learn and move forward, than sit back with there head buried in the sand!

[Steve Cole]

If tuning live can timing move and watch live pressure changes? Or can it only be read in a log later?
Bob

It's tough tuning live to really see the pressure waves and understand them. With precise crankshaft position you can see where peak pressure is and then move it to see the effect it has. I like to see the data logged then sit down and review it to try and understand what I'm looking at and why. That helps me better understand why I may or maynot want to change things. Much more to it but that's my overview of it.

Bottom line here is to use the Narrow Band sensor for WOT tuning.......... can it be done, is it accurate enough and safe enough. I know my answer but until some of you think outside the box and really sit down and look at what is currently being done then compare it to the Narrow Band O2 output, you will never understand or know.

So instead of the usual BS job about tuned to 13.x:1 exactly and you cannot do that with anything else, let's really see if ANYONE can tune to 13.x:1 and show how accurate there data is as the raw data doesn't lie! Once we pass that hurdle we can then compare fairly that data to what the Narrow Band Sensor showed at the same time. I gave a very straight forward test procedure for those with the DJ dyno and DJ sniffer as everyone claims that's good enough so it will work for a fist cut test. Plenty more could be done and has been done but you need to start somewhere with some good test data.

[turboprop]

Would really like to know more about the accuracy of the crank position sensor. As the tuning debaters him and haw over timing, if the margin of error is say +/- three degrees (maybe more just guessing), that sort of is a game changer for the timing arena.

More to the point. Steve, you state the OEM Harley crank position sensor is not accurate enough. Good enough for me. But would like to know how accurate it is and what is your source that information. A link to an open source site would be best or maybe you can post up an OEM document or certified test data from an independent laboratory.

Steve, do you have such data to quantify your statement about the sensor not being accurate? Please share.

[Steve Cole]

Just some simple math. Doesn't take anymore than that to know that the accuracy cannot be any better the the next measurement point and since a HD crank trigger only has 30 teeth it's very crude to say the least. This would be a subject for another thread not this one.


Edit: The industry standard amount for crankshaft measurement is 1440 pulse per revolution

[turboprop]

Just some simple math. Doesn't take anymore than that to know that the accuracy cannot be any better the the next measurement point and since a HD crank trigger only has 30 teeth it's very crude to say the least. This would be a subject for another thread not this one.

Good answer, maybe. But you are right, this does belong in a different thread.

[mayor]

here's a data recording from my bike last night:
https://www.box.com/s/adnqtqpwpp7chbwc4y9d

here's the front WOT afr as tested last night:


here's the rear WOT afr reading as tested last night:


I blew those up to clearly show the afr between 12-14 just for Steve.  I would have probably been able to do a little more testing if it weren't for the hour it took to up date my laptop with the latest software so it would read the HD06 VCI agian.    I don't understand what the issue was since this is the laptop I street tuned the bike with.  I must have updated the software sometime between uses that caused me to have to update again.  IMO TTS needs to come up with a better way of doing updates that doesn't take so freaking long.  

I had to use my laptop for the recording, since the Datamaster program seems to want to become dominant and will make using the eddy brake function difficult at the end of the run.  Any of you other guys run into this?  

[miker]

All y'all are getting closer....

[Steve Cole]

So it appears you made 2 separate runs on each graph and I assume with no changes between them and you have a variation of what I would expect between them. So now the question is what AFR are you going to call that? Each cylinder appears by your charts to vary between ~12.8 and 13.5 by those measurements and each run is different but within those ranges.

Just so everyone knows those are as good as you can get it and if you test over and over again I have never seen anyone that has gotten them to repeat any better than this when you get the scale of the graph to where you can really see it. Each and every time you run the engine the graph will be somewhat different and you can adjust it over and over again and your going to get the same type results.

Did you do ECM Data log captures of those exact runs? If so, check for AE, DE and knock, then if those are OK plot the Injector BPW Front versus RPM of both runs and that is going to show you what the ECM was doing for both runs and the same can be done for the rear cylinder. If both runs were under the exact same conditions the graph should show the same each time. If the BPW is different between the 2 runs then something changed between the runs. This gives a clearer picture of what it was being told to do versus what the output was. The last set of plots would be to plot RPM versus O2 Sensor Front for both runs and the same for the rear cylinder.

[mayor]

So it appears you made 2 separate runs on each graph and I assume with no changes between them and you have a variation of what I would expect between them. So now the question is what AFR are you going to call that? Each cylinder appears by your charts to vary between ~12.8 and 13.5 by those measurements and each run is different but within those ranges.

the two runs each test was done on the same cal at the same dyno session, within moments of one another. 

Did you do ECM Data log captures of those exact runs? 

the data recording that I posted this morning from my box account is only of the two pulls which coincide with the posted front afr chart.  I didn't run a data recording on the posted rear, since that would have involved moving the sensor again (I'm using the single channel sensor from dyno).  I recorded the rear on a previous data recording, but the front had not been dialed in yet at that time.

here's that data (recording this past Saturday):


the datamaster recording of the dyno run can be found here:
https://www.box.com/s/tuwtejviaudiz6ehlqa8

I did change VE values on both cyclinders since that run.