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[Buckeye_Tuning]

HAHA!  I am the six bike wonder.

[FLTRI]

Mayor,
Thanks for participating. I bet you feel like a guinea pig.
I believe your, and hopefully others, findings will be favorable towards correlating O2 voltage to effectively tune WOT AFR.
If so, there will be some happy DIYers who have no access to a quality tune unless they can create it themselves.
Since it will take some creative learning and thinking to tune WOT this way I believe pro tuners have little to worry about.
Thanks again,
Bob

[FLTRI]

HAHA!  I am the six bike wonder.

Have you tried to correlate measured AFR with O2 sensor output yet?
Bob

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I have been working.  I will give this a try come this weekend, Bob.  I have a PC bike coming in, a 06 Dyna.  If the PC can't make the bike how this guy wants?  (something REALLY ain't right with it)Switch it to a TTS?  Kind of doubt that will be needed. I have a Direct Link key sitting here, maybe THAT would help dude out with his Dyna?

So, I will throw the 120 on the wheel instead at some point.  I have new O2s in that and the bungs have been modified to gather good NB data.

And Ed?  Yup...  I AM a two bike wonder, but I have thrown all the money I could get and have started to put my money where my mouth is TO LEARN... one way or another.  I am probably close to $25k invested and I have NEVER thought this would be a deal where I have a good ROI.  Instead, I bought it to find the TRUTH of things... for myself, withOUT filtering data from others.  And... at the end of the day?  It WILL be what it is from the data that I, personally, gather, for me.  Nice to see you posting again, BTW.

I AM a magnet for H8ers.  Maybe you too?  Thats ok, don't like it, but still ok.  At the end of the day...  it will be MY data, no one else.  Because...  here's the deal...  I will NOT alter, manipulate, or change in ANY way the data.  If I find out crap I did not think would happen, then I will have to change how I view things.  Two weeks ago, with a bike on it, my friggin Theta controller took a dump.  To fix that?  I had to buy a $500 Dynojet banner, BEFORE I could buy the damn $400 controller.

So... if enough of us try some experiments, and the data confirms whats being said.  Wouldn't THAT end up helping members and DIYers?  Dude...  that is really the reason I have done this.  I have NO illusions of being the GREATEST or even close.  That is for others.  If I can just get this thing to make its payments, have some happy customers, do things in a workmanship like manner, and... learn?  Now THAT is really whats happening.  My whole life is changing right in front of me, and there is NOTHING I can do about it.  So... I made the decision to do crap that actually can help DIYers and members of this board.  So, yes... I will be your Huckleberry or whatever, but spending the money that should have went to helping me once I am past 60?  THAT gets me a seat at the table, regardless of whatever others may think or feel.

We ALL know what this is all about, too.  TTS will be releasing, at some point?  Another 'tool' to help tuners and DIYers.  To be able to use the NBs to help bring the VEs in from the 80+ kpa regions.  Right now, there is only one good option to do this with, and that is to sniff the bike with an offboard device to verify the VEs.  I do NOT mind at all helping with testing of something like this.  I make no money from this, either, and... just so we are on the same page...  I surely do not get ANYTHING free for doing this.  DIYers have a tough road to hoe.  I KNOW this from experience.  I am curious, so lets see where this leads us, Ed.

[mayor]

Mayor,
Thanks for participating. I bet you feel like a guinea pig.

no, I feel like your being a slacker    ....I showed my data, when are you showing yours?   

[FLTRI]

no, I feel like your being a slacker    ....I showed my data, when are you showing yours?   

So you still havent figgure out this was an attempt for a "Blind test"?
If I were to offer my findings it would be takin' as biased and simply tossed out with the water...so to speak.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Mayor what AFR are you/we going to call your data runs?

The data you linked to is the ECM data for the Front Cylinder Only as posted above. Below is the data broke out for all to see. This is the area of the runs that have no AE, DE or Knock occurring during the same dyno runs as posted above. It's clear to see that the BPW is changing between runs and the O2 voltage is as well. The stock O2 sensor is tracking right along with the data coming from the dyno charts, funny how that works isn't it. While it shows differences it's clear that they track one another close enough for what is needed.

frame   RPM   BPW   O2 mV
722   2566   14.16   1740
723   2701   14.46   1740
724   2828   14.43   1720
725   2962   14.51   1720
726   3098   14.94   1740
727   3223   15.07   1740
728   3352   15.04   1740
729   3473   15.2   1740
730   3597   15.28   1760
731   3721   15.37   1760
732   3845   15.25   1760
733   3970   15.33   1760
734   4086   15.31   1760
735   4200   15.31   1760
736   4315   15.34   1760
737   4428   15.26   1760
738   4537   15.12   1760
739   4649   14.96   1760
740   4755   14.72   1760
741   4862   14.66   1760
742   4959   14.5   1760
743   5059   14.42   1760
744   5161   14.23   1760
745   5252   14.16   1760
746   5342   13.97   1760
747   5433   13.9   1760
748   5514   13.76   1760


frame   RPM   BPW   O2 mV
832   2515   14.16   1720
833   2637   14.23   1720
834   2763   14.3   1720
835   2890   14.43   1720
836   3016   14.59   1720
837   3155   14.91   1720
838   3285   15.07   1740
839   3411   15.1   1740
840   3547   15.18   1740
841   3670   15.37   1760
842   3792   15.14   1740
843   3932   15.28   1740
844   4051   15.39   1740
845   4169   15.31   1740
846   4288   15.23   1740
847   4398   15.15   1740
848   4514   15.07   1740
849   4628   14.94   1740
850   4739   14.78   1740
851   4843   14.61   1740
852   4952   14.4   1740
853   5052   14.21   1740
854   5149   14.13   1740
855   5240   14.06   1740
856   5339   13.97   1740
857   5430   13.84   1740
858   5519   13.76   1740

[mayor]

So you still havent figgure out this was an attempt for a "Blind test"?

how blind is everyone knowing where the data that I posted came from. 

If I were to offer my findings it would be takin' as biased and simply tossed out with the water...so to speak.

I think your biased since this is a method you have used before with some success....but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust your data.  As far as the other fellows, don't see any one here but us church mice so have at it. 

[mayor]

Mayor what AFR are you/we going to call your data runs?

to be honest....if I were a pro tuner I would call it good enough to move onto the next bike:


...but for discussion purposes I would consider the afr to be tuned to 13.2...although 13.1 afr is probably the mean value.  The afr values that I posted were with limited corrections (about 4 cals start to finish on rear, and 3 on the front), so the deviation between humps and dips could probably be reduced...but doing so would not improve power or performance..so for my bike I would call this good enough for now.   

The data you linked to is the ECM data for the Front Cylinder Only as posted above. Below is the data broke out for all to see. This is the area of the runs that have no AE, DE or Knock occurring during the same dyno runs as posted above. It's clear to see that the BPW is changing between runs and the O2 voltage is as well. 

I disagree that this is clear to see.  The rpm values are not the same between the runs, so the relation ships between the corresponding tuning cells are not going to be the same.  I will say that this information does show that the 02 mV’s are reasonably stable. 

[mayor]

OK, here's one for you Steve.  This is what the front cylinder's reported afr looked like prior to ve adjustments:


I know that it would be best to have these recorded at the same time, but the general trends should still be the same since there were no adjustments made to the front ve's prior to these afr runs.  This would have been the only data recording I had prior to adjusting (but this was not in conjunction to the dyno run from the above afr read out):
https://www.box.com/s/tuwtejviaudiz6ehlqa8

here's what that data recording is showing:
Rec Num   Engine Speed   Injector BPW Front   O2 Sensor Front
#   RPM   mS   mV
720   2316   13.86   1720
721   2429   13.86   1720
722   2566   14.16   1740
723   2701   14.46   1740
724   2828   14.43   1720
725   2962   14.51   1720
726   3098   14.94   1740
727   3223   15.07   1740
728   3352   15.04   1740
729   3473   15.2   1740
730   3597   15.28   1760
731   3721   15.37   1760
732   3845   15.25   1760
733   3970   15.33   1760
734   4086   15.31   1760
735   4200   15.31   1760
736   4315   15.34   1760
737   4428   15.26   1760
738   4537   15.12   1760
739   4649   14.96   1760
740   4755   14.72   1760
741   4862   14.66   1760
742   4959   14.5   1760
743   5059   14.42   1760
744   5161   14.23   1760
745   5252   14.16   1760
746   5342   13.97   1760
747   5433   13.9   1760
748   5514   13.76   1760
         
         
#   RPM   mS   mV
832   2515   14.16   1720
833   2637   14.32   1720
834   2763   14.3   1720
835   2890   14.43   1720
836   3016   14.59   1720
837   3155   14.91   1720
838   3285   15.07   1740
839   3411   15.1   1740
840   3547   15.18   1740
841   3670   15.37   1760
842   3792   15.14   1740
843   3932   15.28   1740
844   4051   15.39   1740
845   4169   15.31   1740
846   4288   15.23   1740
847   4398   15.15   1740
848   4514   15.07   1740
849   4628   14.94   1740
850   4739   14.78   1740
851   4843   14.61   1740
852   4952   14.4   1740
853   5052   14.21   1740
854   5149   14.13   1740
855   5240   14.06   1740
856   5339   13.97   1740
857   5430   13.84   1740
858   5519   13.76   1740

[Steve Cole]

Did I misunderstand something??? Was the data not take at the same time as the posted dyno AFR chart?

The reason I dropped frame 718 - 721 was due to AE, DE or knock being involved.

[mayor]

if how you undertsood it was that the data was not taken at the same time, no you did not misunderstand.  The front ve's were unchanged from the dyno run, so I am thinking the trends should be similar.

[Steve Cole]

No, I understood that the data you linked too was take when you made the dyno pulls on the Front cylinder but not the Rear Cylinder. That is the way it should be done. The fact that the data was not done at the exact same time renders it not valid.

[FLTRI]

how blind is everyone knowing where the data that I posted came from. 
 I think your biased since this is a method you have used before with some success....but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't trust your data.  As far as the other fellows, don't see any one here but us church mice so have at it. 

Mayor,
My idea was to get INDEPENDENT(not mine) input from other tuners who hopefully would offer their data to either validate of dispel a theory that target AFR can be had by using the OEM NB02 sensors for those DIYers who do not have the equipment to use a dyno and/or broadbands.

Bob
PS - I'm sure they don't come here to see were the discussion went after the mods locked it down over there, right?

[mayor]

Only the second set is invalid Tsani, the first was taken at the same time.