Topic: '12 Last Year for Air Cooled (Read 5589 times)

Dr.D · « **on:** August 15, 2011, 11:42:54 AM »

A salesman at one of the local dealer asked my wife if I was still interested in the SERG and she replied that it would be '13 before I was ready to look with serious intent. He told her that I might want to look at one of the new '12s because this is the last year for air cooled motors and after that they'd all be water cooled like the V-Rods.

You think this guy is really the owner of the MoCo posing as a salesman?

He seems to know an awful lot. That sounded more like a desperate sales pitch to me. Pathetic!

mrmagloo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2011, 11:44:53 AM »

Tell him to put up, or shut up!

fresh oil and pipes · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2011, 11:51:40 AM »

I would love to have a water cooled HD V-Twin.

LarryB · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2011, 12:08:14 PM »

Ain't gonna happen yet, best that might be is water cooled heads

dartman · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2011, 12:25:29 PM »

Quote from: Dr.D on August 15, 2011, 11:42:54 AM

A salesman at one of the local dealer asked my wife if I was still interested in the SERG and she replied that it would be '13 before I was ready to look with serious intent. He told her that I might want to look at one of the new '12s because this is the last year for air cooled motors and after that they'd all be water cooled like the V-Rods.

You think this guy is really the owner of the MoCo posing as a salesman? He seems to know an awful lot. That sounded more like a desperate sales pitch to me. Pathetic!

The last place you want to get information on a Harley Davidson would be at most dealerships, I have overheard misinformation handed out as gospel, to try and make a sale. HD has applied for a patent on watercooled heads but even that might be years away.

Dr.D · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2011, 01:21:17 PM »

My impressions was that he was trying to scare us into an earlier purchase, "cause soon they will loose the Harley soul". I guess he thinks I'm dumber than he is.

If done well I told the wife that it will actually solve some of common problems of the air cooled bikes.

JCZ · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2011, 01:23:42 PM »

Desperate measures.......that's what a couple of them were saying the past couple of years. Time to find a new dealership.

DESERTBEAR54 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2011, 01:33:10 PM »

Lot's of scuttle butt on the water cooled jacketed heads. We will see. Another BlackHole Release!!!

2k · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2011, 02:19:49 PM »

I don't see a problem with water.........if it makes it better I'm for it. Ever be sitting in traffic(ie: Myrtle Bch) and smell your motor cooking?

Mr D · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2011, 02:40:31 PM »

Quote from: LarryB on August 15, 2011, 12:08:14 PM

Ain't gonna happen yet, best that might be is water cooled heads

X2

gijerome · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2011, 02:57:52 PM »

I have seen that harley applied for a patent on water cooling the heads. Also heard scuttle butt that there is a new round of emissions control to meet next year. Wouldn't suprise me if next year some things change. www.thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/06/20/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/

JCZ · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:23:55 PM »

"....it's Harley Davidson's plans to water cool the heads on their touring models by hiding the cooling system within the leg shield portions of the fairing."

Does that mean that all touring models will come with leg fairings or the water cooled heads will only be on those models with leg fairings?

And to answer that question:

"Although the patent shows and describes the cooling system installed on a Harley touring bike, the patent states:

Before any embodiments of the invention are explained in detail, it is to be understood that the invention is not limited in its application to the details of construction and the arrangement of components set forth in the following description or illustrated in the following drawings. The invention is capable of other embodiments and of being practiced or of being carried out in various ways. Also, it is to be understood that the phraseology and terminology used herein is for the purpose of description and should not be regarded as limiting.

... which basically means it can show up arranged to work on any of the bikes in their lineup."

fastbikedroid · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:33:51 PM »

I think it's coming due to EU emissions regs, maybe on the 13 or the 14 models. Fact is they did nothing on the 12's other than change the paint and add a couple of speakers to the SESG.

Here's my uninformed list of what I think either 13 or 14 is going to bring:
* New controls like the the new BCM on the Softail
* Bolt-on water cooling like the patent that's floating around to get the emissions in check
* A larger motor than the 110

Here's what I'm pretty sure won't happen but that I'd like to see;
* Minor fairing tweaks for better air management without having to screw plastic bits everywhere (testing has come a long way in 40 years)
* Minor fairing and suspension tweaks to lower the weight and improve the handling of the batwing fairing
* A slightly stretched touring frame and some clever adjustability to accomodate taller/larger riders
* A revised radio headunit that keeps the gadgets hidden but can spit out a gps screen if we're touring.

Or maybe we'll just see new paint and some other variation of the P&A catalog ... Oh wait ...

LarryB · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2011, 03:34:50 PM »

Quote from: dartman on August 15, 2011, 12:25:29 PM

The last place you want to get information on a Harley Davidson would be at most dealerships, I have overheard misinformation handed out as gospel, to try and make a sale. HD has applied for a patent on watercooled heads but even that might be years away.

That patent was approved and published in May

CVOfan · « **Reply #14 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:25:46 PM »

Quote from: dartman on August 15, 2011, 12:25:29 PM

The last place you want to get information on a Harley Davidson would be at most dealerships, I have overheard misinformation handed out as gospel, to try and make a sale. HD has applied for a patent on watercooled heads but even that might be years away.

That's my opinion as well...dealer last week tried to convince me he was the only one in the country who had a 2012 SESG for sale. That was right before he offered to sell me his for $5k over MSRP! ....he still has the bike...

JCZ · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:34:07 PM »

Quote from: CVOfan on August 15, 2011, 04:25:46 PM

That's my opinion as well...dealer last week tried to convince me he was the only one in the country who had a 2012 SESG for sale. That was right before he offered to sell me his for $5k over MSRP! ....he still has the bike...

The orange 12 SESG sitting on the floor at Sacramento HD.....MSRP dealer. Ask for Jarret or Michael in sales.

mark · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:39:40 PM »

We've heard the cry of "this is the last year for air-cooled engines" for years. Every June-July, Google "new Harley-Davidison" and see how many conspiracy therorist are stating the new models will all be water-cooled....happens every yr. My prediction: HD will not water-cool unless Uncle Sugar bends the MoCo over and absolutely makes them.

Regarding the salesman claiming that the '13's will be water-cooled...yeah, I'm sure he's privy to what's going on behind closed doors at HD mgmt. and design meetings...he got the inside info while having a few brews at Willie G's this weekend. If HD does go water-cooled, he'll know when we all do.

Gotta go, Jack Roush and Carroll Shelby invited me over to talk about the new 2013 Mustang's electric-kerosene rotary engine.

mrmagloo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:47:08 PM »

I can't imagine how hot your feet will get with the radiators in the lowers like that?

CVOfan · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2011, 04:53:12 PM »

Quote from: JCZ on August 15, 2011, 04:34:07 PM

The orange 12 SESG sitting on the floor at Sacramento HD.....MSRP dealer. Ask for Jarret or Michael in sales.

Sorry...didn't mean to hijack the thread. Wish that dealer was closer to me here in Arkansas...

kraut · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2011, 06:10:47 PM »

Quote from: Dr.D on August 15, 2011, 11:42:54 AM

A salesman at one of the local dealer asked my wife if I was still interested in the SERG and she replied that it would be '13 before I was ready to look with serious intent. He told her that I might want to look at one of the new '12s because this is the last year for air cooled motors and after that they'd all be water cooled like the V-Rods.

ridiculous

Sales people ...

IronButt · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2011, 12:46:09 AM »

Quote from: Dr.D on August 15, 2011, 01:21:17 PM

My impressions was that he was trying to scare us into an earlier purchase, "cause soon they will loose the Harley soul". I guess he thinks I'm dumber than he is.

If done well I told the wife that it will actually solve some of common problems of the air cooled bikes.

Don't worry!!!!! They will still have plenty of soul: excessive pinion shaft runout, wheel weight dents in your front fender, mushy suspension, under powered, overheating, bad aerodynamics, pinched flywheels and don't forget that famous Death Wobble!!! now thats what I call soul!

They have tried for years to get us to stop buying them; and you think some water is going to do it

CVOThunder · « **Reply #21 on:** August 16, 2011, 01:22:43 AM »

Build a bagger with a 120ci V-Rod type engine and the change in those looking at buying a Harley would be impressive. Ok, maybe my crystal ball is a bit cracked but I bet enough people would be interested to change camps. Could be the other way around though and people would leave. Once they get the bugs worked out I think they would sell. To just water cool the heads seems like a counter productive way to go and just a stop gap measure. If the MoCo is gonna leap, make it a change big enough to make the world take notice. A gradual release would offer those wanting water cooled engine an option along with those wanting air cooled. Make the case and then start phasing out air cooled. JM2C

Gecko · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2011, 07:56:37 AM »

Great, another fluid to leak. Another opportunity for the dealers to say you'll void the warranty if you use anybody elses' water. Cooling fans that fail after two years; New bearings (or a "water pump support plate") to go out. Screamin' Eagle high performance thermostat upgrade! Chrome radiator overflow tank covers by Kuryakin. Ported and polished water jacket holes. Coolant in the oil. Oil in the coolant. The inevitable after-market supplemental radiator because the stock one will still run hot. Water pump shaft runout. The coolant tank will be behind the fairing and require partial disassembly to flush it. It will be four years before they eliminate some ugly black rubber hose in plain view. A performance enhancement to re-wire the fan to come on with the ignition switch. And no temp gauge unless you put one in yourself.

Opossum · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2011, 08:48:50 AM »

Quote from: LarryB on August 15, 2011, 03:34:50 PM

That patent was approved and published in May

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2011/06/20/harley-davidson-water-cooled-heads-patent/ pretty cool article

grc · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2011, 08:48:57 AM »

Quote from: CVOThunder on August 16, 2011, 01:22:43 AM

Build a bagger with a 120ci V-Rod type engine and the change in those looking at buying a Harley would be impressive. Ok, maybe my crystal ball is a bit cracked but I bet enough people would be interested to change camps. Could be the other way around though and people would leave. Once they get the bugs worked out I think they would sell. To just water cool the heads seems like a counter productive way to go and just a stop gap measure. If the MoCo is gonna leap, make it a change big enough to make the world take notice. A gradual release would offer those wanting water cooled engine an option along with those wanting air cooled. Make the case and then start phasing out air cooled. JM2C

Much of what H-D does is just stop gap or catch up. So this little detour on the road to the 21st century sort of fits right in with how they run the business.

Assuming that patent is real, I find it rather sad that our system has become so screwed up that folks can apply for and be granted patents on stuff that has already been in use for many decades. I've noticed that H-D has really embraced the whole idea of wallpapering headquarters with patents since the Twin Cam came out, in an obvious effort to squash the aftermarket guys. But how do you enforce a patent that basically says you are just going to apply existing technology to your product?

Jerry

cvobiker · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2011, 09:15:53 AM »

Quote from: JCZ on August 15, 2011, 03:23:55 PM

"....it's Harley Davidson's plans to water cool the heads on their touring models by hiding the cooling system within the leg shield portions of the fairing."

Does that mean that all touring models will come with leg fairings or the water cooled heads will only be on those models with leg fairings?

"[/i]

My guess is; they'll figure out a way to stuff the cooling contraption in an air dam on the Softails, Dyna's and who knows what the'll do with the Sportster line, maybe replace them with a VRod engine ?

And what's going to happen with the 'ole trusty oil coolers?? eliminated ??

spydglide · « **Reply #26 on:** August 16, 2011, 09:25:03 AM »

Sounds as if they employ more lawyers than design engineers. Patents instead of innovation. aaaarrgh. spyder

Twolanerider · « **Reply #27 on:** August 16, 2011, 10:40:05 AM »

Had seen that ostensive patent filing (never interested enough to check out its authenticity) before. First reaction then and now is what a Rube Goldberg contraption that is to accomplish the most basic and minimal water cooling that could possibly be added. Me and another big guy could stand beside the bike and wizz and do nearly as much (if you discount the odor).

Another reaction to that ugly mess was "oh, a P&A driven idea." The whole thing could be retrofit with a cylinder head change. Admittedly Mother Harley probably won't. But god I hope they offer up something more effective and aesthetic than that mess.

miker · « **Reply #28 on:** August 16, 2011, 10:49:29 AM »

I will order a HD Nova when they have a cvo of it..no, prolly not.

Mr D · « **Reply #29 on:** August 16, 2011, 11:49:21 AM »

Quote from: miker on August 16, 2011, 10:49:29 AM

I will order a HD Nova when they have a cvo of it..no, prolly not.
[/quote

Looks like a '83 FXRT i bought new, Fun to ride too, Not the best looking though

GtreetSlide · « **Reply #30 on:** August 16, 2011, 12:10:41 PM »

2013 seems like a great year to make major changes....

Rooster · « **Reply #31 on:** August 16, 2011, 12:47:43 PM »

No more first year for me. I will let others test it for a couple of years first.

9 1/2 Beers · « **Reply #32 on:** August 16, 2011, 12:49:20 PM »

Quote from: Rooster on August 16, 2011, 12:47:43 PM

No more first year for me. I will let others test it for a couple of years first.

I'm with you terry, what ?, at least 3 yrs ?

tennisman · « **Reply #33 on:** August 18, 2011, 04:21:50 AM »

Quote from: Gecko on August 16, 2011, 07:56:37 AM

Great, another fluid to leak. Another opportunity for the dealers to say you'll void the warranty if you use anybody elses' water. Cooling fans that fail after two years; New bearings (or a "water pump support plate") to go out. Screamin' Eagle high performance thermostat upgrade! Chrome radiator overflow tank covers by Kuryakin. Ported and polished water jacket holes. Coolant in the oil. Oil in the coolant. The inevitable after-market supplemental radiator because the stock one will still run hot. Water pump shaft runout. The coolant tank will be behind the fairing and require partial disassembly to flush it. It will be four years before they eliminate some ugly black rubber hose in plain view. A performance enhancement to re-wire the fan to come on with the ignition switch. And no temp gauge unless you put one in yourself.

Something tells me you are the prophet of things to come!! Good job!
Let's see: also threads upon threads of various synthetic water additives to improve cooling efficiency and dyno curves for low drag water pumps!

stratplexi · « **Reply #34 on:** August 18, 2011, 01:00:08 PM »

Water cooling will happen on a larger number of bikes in the lineup with the market demands it. I don't see that anytime in the near term. Touring bikes are selling like hot cakes and don't think for a minute Harley is going to make any major changes if they don't have to. Harley helped the EPA draft the regulations and they will be able to meet them for the forseseable future. I believe they will continue to use oil cooling more in the future before going to water cooling and in better ways.

napalm · « **Reply #35 on:** August 22, 2011, 06:30:02 PM »

After my 2008 Duracell left me sitting in NYC this past Saturday, I would welcome anything that runs cooler.......my thighs have blisters...scoot got so hot it shut down. Could'nt start it for an hour......

But enjoyed the ride anyway!!!!

napalm

spydglide · « **Reply #36 on:** August 22, 2011, 06:41:31 PM »

Quote from: napalm on August 22, 2011, 06:30:02 PM

After my 2008 Duracell left me sitting in NYC this past Saturday, I would welcome anything that runs cooler.......my thighs have blisters...scoot got so hot it shut down. Could'nt start it for an hour......

But enjoyed the ride anyway!!!!

napalm

If you enjoyed the ride anyway, you must have only quoted to us the low points.........blistered thighs, NYC traffic on a big motor fairing bike, and stranded on the roadside.

?? Relate the high points please !!!

har. spyder

tomjetty · « **Reply #37 on:** August 22, 2011, 07:43:06 PM »

It's about time. Although I'll wait a few years for the bugs to be worked out. I bought my 09 CVO Road glide with the intention of leaving it 100% stock. Ha Ha!!

It ran so hot at times that the top end sounded like I had no oil!

Thanks to Fullsac I can ride it on a hot day now

tennisman · « **Reply #38 on:** August 22, 2011, 10:10:58 PM »

Quote from: tomjetty on August 22, 2011, 07:43:06 PM

It's about time. Although I'll wait a few years for the bugs to be worked out. I bought my 09 CVO Road glide with the intention of leaving it 100% stock. Ha Ha!! It ran so hot at times that the top end sounded like I had no oil!

Thanks to Fullsac I can ride it on a hot day now

And just think, your 09 had benefited from HD's efforts to cool the motor compared to the 08 and 07 models!

cvobiker · « **Reply #39 on:** August 22, 2011, 10:20:46 PM »

Quote from: mrmagloo on August 15, 2011, 04:47:08 PM

I can't imagine how hot your feet will get with the radiators in the lowers like that?

Added benefit ! it will help keep those new lower fairing speakers dry...

napalm · « **Reply #40 on:** August 24, 2011, 11:24:21 PM »

Quote from: spydglide on August 22, 2011, 06:41:31 PM

If you enjoyed the ride anyway, you must have only quoted to us the low points.........blistered thighs, NYC traffic on a big motor fairing bike, and stranded on the roadside.?? Relate the high points please !!! har. spyder

Har spyder

See my post in Ride Report Americas 911 Ride

Author Topic: '12 Last Year for Air Cooled (Read 5589 times)

mark