Topic: Andrews 37G or Zippers 575 (Read 13020 times)

103_RK · « **on:** April 07, 2007, 06:06:20 AM »

I have a 2003 103" SE Road King. I ride 2 up a lot and was wondering which gear drive setup would offer the best low end torque. I know they are both recomended as good cams. I would like the torque to improve at the 1800 to 3000 rpm range where most riding is done. Of course I like high numbers like everyone else. I have Vance & Hines Big SHot Duals with thunder monster baffles. I have ordered Daytone Twin tec's Twin scan 2 plus to use O2 sensors to adjust the afr with my race tuner. I asked Andres which cam to use and they eccommended the 37G. I see here that the ZIppers seems to be the cam of choice. Any thoughts as to which would offer the torque to meet my needs?

Thanks in advance, this forum is a great source of information.

nidan · « **Reply #1 on:** April 07, 2007, 07:56:39 AM »

The 37G is a much lower lift cam .510 vs .575 for the zippers. I have a hi comp version of it (31G) and it is a good low end cam that produces a fat flat torque curve from 2000-6000 rpm.

the 37G does have a lower compression limit , stay under 9.8 and you'll be fine . The 575 will provide more power , and both benefit from head work . If you have the bandwidth The Zippers kit would be a good way to go as you get headwork/cams / larger throttlebody . A proven and matched set .

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #2 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:19:51 AM »

For a 103 you are better off with the 575's. They are designed for your low compression 103 motor. The valve timing has been changed to make your motor act like it has a higher compression ratio.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Fired00d · « **Reply #3 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:41:37 AM »

Quote from: nidan on April 07, 2007, 07:56:39 AM

The 37G is a much lower lift cam .510 vs .575 for the zippers. I have a hi comp version of it (31G) and it is a good low end cam that produces a fat flat torque curve from 2000-6000 rpm.

the 37G does have a lower compression limit , stay under 9.8 and you'll be fine . The 575 will provide more power , and both benefit from head work . If you have the bandwidth The Zippers kit would be a good way to go as you get headwork/cams / larger throttlebody . A proven and matched set .

Can't speak for the Andrews because I know nothing about them, however I do have the Zippers 575's and I am very pleased w/them.

Along w/Zippers there is another company (Freedom Cycles) that is offering a bolt in cam for the CVO 103ci motors (see below)

REDSHIFT 575 CAMS & OTHER PRETTY PARTS (dyno runs included in this thread).

Freedom Cycles / Yuill Bros. Cam Specs.

FCC14 Cams 103 Dyno.

Neither one of these cam packages require headwork or changing the throttle body as they were designed to be bolt in packages. I know Zippers is not recommending doing any headwork w/their cams as it will defeat the purpose of the way they designed the cams. Some that have gone w/these packages have upgraded the oil pumps (Feuling) while doing this for better oil pressure, changed lifters, and changed pushrods.

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

hd-dude · « **Reply #4 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:48:35 AM »

Zippers 575 or the Freedom Cycles YB13 or YB 14. These cams were designed specifically for the 103 motors. The 37G is a good cam for a 88 or 95" motor.

103_RK · « **Reply #5 on:** April 08, 2007, 04:36:05 AM »

Thanks to all for the replies. It looks like Zippers is the way to go. I do plan on changing the oil pump as well. Is ther much bebefit in changing the cam plate? I see Feuling makes a cam plate as well.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #6 on:** April 08, 2007, 04:52:48 AM »

Quote from: 103_RK on April 08, 2007, 04:36:05 AM

Thanks to all for the replies. It looks like Zippers is the way to go. I do plan on changing the oil pump as well. Is ther much bebefit in changing the cam plate? I see Feuling makes a cam plate as well.

Their cam plate is to be used only with their oil pump. So it's not a universal replacement.

Cam plate isn't a must do. The stock part is actually pretty good. Benefits from the Feuling plate are passage of a bit more volume and apparently the loss of a little cavitation through the galleys.

103_RK · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2007, 10:06:29 PM »

Is the plate worth the $300+ cost?

Twolanerider · « **Reply #8 on:** April 09, 2007, 11:11:33 AM »

Quote from: 103_RK on April 08, 2007, 10:06:29 PM

Is the plate worth the $300+ cost?

The stock piece is good enough I'd not have paid the cost for the Feuling cam plate. Only reason I got one is I found a great deal on eBay because someone couldn't spell Feuling and no one else apparently found the ad.

103_RK · « **Reply #9 on:** April 09, 2007, 08:42:07 PM »

Lucky find. I look on ebay often. Find many good deals when compared to local prices. I will have to keep an eye out for parts.

copout221 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2007, 01:11:51 AM »

I would also 86 the DTT twins scan stuff...A total P I T A to work with when compared to the Zippers TMAT. Just my .02

St.Pete · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:05:59 AM »

103 RK
In case you havn't started yet. I just had a Woods 6G installed. That is the same lift as the andrews 37G. I wouldn't argue that you will get more torque out of the 575's but I think you will need hi-lift springs for the 575's that you won't need for the 510. A fair amount more work involved. I am not unhappy with mine although I wish I had I had had a D&D Fat Cat put on when I did the cam. I'm running Vance and Hines slash cut muffleres with all the fiber glass removed. I ended up at 94 HP and 110 Lbs torque. The torque curve was a vertical line up to 90 lbs then flattened out a bit up to 110. I guess the real question is how much HP/TQ is enough. Good Luck and ride safe. St. Pete

103_RK · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2007, 06:44:36 AM »

St.Pete, I thought the Zippers 575 was meant to be a bolt on without any other modifications to heads of springs?

110tHunDer · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2007, 07:57:34 AM »

They are. Along with the YB14 cams from Freedom Cycles in Reno, the 575s are designed to get the most out of the stock 103's hemi heads and require NO OTHER internal mods.

Good luck with your choice. I know which one I'd do (again).

St.Pete · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2007, 01:06:41 PM »

103 RK
I guess I've been corrected. The reason I responded is Woods makes a 575 and it requires Hi-Lift springs. Maybe it is a close call and they ere on the conservative? St. Pete

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #15 on:** April 16, 2007, 01:46:35 PM »

The Zipper's 575 is just under the maxium lift for the stock springs, so it's good to go. The Freedom YB 14's are a little less lift, so even a bit easier on the springs, but the difference is not significant. Both produce similar numbers and are excellent choices. The Freedom comes in a bit later, but holds on a little longer than the Zippers, so it really boils down to a matter of where you like to shift. A feller' can't go wrong with one of these cams.

redtwin · « **Reply #16 on:** April 16, 2007, 06:30:13 PM »

se 264,flow the heads,50 mil injection

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #17 on:** April 16, 2007, 06:39:01 PM »

Quote from: redtwin on April 16, 2007, 06:30:13 PM

se 264,flow the heads,50 mil injection

That would be the worst choice anyone could make for these motors!

Gear Driven cams only in my bikes!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

redtwin · « **Reply #18 on:** April 17, 2007, 07:57:22 PM »

dc why do you think that is a bad idea? just would like your opinion

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #19 on:** April 17, 2007, 09:57:18 PM »

First off they are chain driven. That right there puts them out of the running for any of my bikes. Second if you use that cam you will have nothing but problems unless you up the compression and use a different set of heads.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

gilbos440rt · « **Reply #20 on:** April 22, 2007, 02:40:47 PM »

Hello all, my first post here so bear with me. Has any one tried the Head Quarters 0039G in a 103? I'm getting ready to do a 95" with those cams and a T-max and D&D fatcat also a set of big boyz street ported 04 heads ( no valve seal trouble) My bike is an 05 Road Glide that I really like, this is with me coming off a dual plug solid lifter Shovelhead I bought new in 83 so it already feels fast

bisounours · « **Reply #21 on:** April 22, 2007, 02:47:00 PM »

Good afternoon gilbos440rt,

I send you the

from FRANCE.

It'll be nice for the other members if you present you in the thread "New Member Introduction"
with a pic of your bike

Best regards

Jacques

103_RK · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2007, 06:35:45 AM »

I am still trying to decide which to go with. I see dyno charts for the 575 cams and they tend to have a low amount of torque in the 1800 to 2500 rpm area. Sometimes they have less than the cams they replace. I would like to compare the Andrews 37G in this area. I know the 575's probably make more torque in the mid and upper range. I think that if I cannot increase the torque in the low range, maybe I should just buy a new cam chain tensioner and stay with the stock cams. Am I expecting too much? This is a lot of money to spend and I need to know that I won't be disappointed with the low rpm rideability. When I am driving on roads other than interstates, I tend to keep my rpms around the 1800 to 2500 range.

110tHunDer · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:04:58 AM »

At anything less than 2000 rpms with any cam you're lugging the motor, IMHO. So, then, you're talking about a concern within an extremely narrow 500 rpm band between 2000 and 2500 rpm on a motor that has a much broader 3500 - 4000 rpm running range? I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense.

Attached is my dyno sheet before and after my 575s and other mods.

Blue line: stock cams, Scremin' Eagle air cleaner, Screamin' Eagle one-piece slip-ons, and Screamin' Eagle Stage 1 ECM calibration

Red line: 575 gear-drive cams, Screamin' Eagle air cleaner, Rinehart true dual exhaust, Feuling oil pump and lifters, Zipper's pushrods, and custom Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner program

In the graph, there is little improvement in the 2000 - 2500 rpm range you're concerned about, but I can tell you the bike feels much better in the 2000 - 3000 range than before the work was done. The bike is much more responsive and motors along much more happily than before in that range, so much so, that I am probably going to do a 6-speed transmission this winter just because the bike performs so much better in the lower end now than it did stock. And, as the graph depicts, you better be holding on at 3000 rpm and beyond! If you are motoring along at 3 grand and crack the throttle wide open, you will get air under the front tire in either 1st or 2nd gear. It is just extremely strong running and fun to ride in that area above 3000 rpm!

So, go ahead and stick with those stock cams!

If you don't do the 575s, I guess you'll never know what you're missing!

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:13:21 AM »

Quote from: 103tHunDer on May 03, 2007, 08:04:58 AM

At anything less than 2000 rpms with any cam you're lugging the motor, IMHO. So, then, you're talking about a concern within an extremely narrow 500 rpm band between 2000 and 2500 rpm on a motor that has a much broader 3500 - 4000 rpm running range? I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense.

Attached is my dyno sheet before and after my 575s and other mods.

Blue line: stock cams, Scremin' Eagle air cleaner, Screamin' Eagle one-piece slip-ons, and Screamin' Eagle Stage 1 ECM calibration

Red line: 575 gear-drive cams, Screamin' Eagle air cleaner, Rinehart true dual exhaust, Feuling oil pump and lifters, Zipper's pushrods, and custom Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner program

In the graph, there is little improvement in the 2000 - 2500 rpm range you're concerned about, but I can tell you the bike feels much better in the 2000 - 3000 range than before the work was done. The bike is much more responsive and motors along much more happily than before in that range, so much so, that I am probably going to do a 6-speed transmission this winter just because the bike performs so much better in the lower end now than it did stock. And, as the graph depicts, you better be holding on at 3000 rpm and beyond! If you are motoring along at 3 grand and crack the throttle wide open, you will get air under the front tire in either 1st or 2nd gear. It is just extremely strong running and fun to ride in that area above 3000 rpm!

So, go ahead and stick with those stock cams! If you don't do the 575s, I guess you'll never know what you're missing!

Brian,
couldn't agree more abouth the 575 cams. although they are not a panacea for performance the midrange with full 2 up riding loads the midrange torque is undeniable. On aside note, I have same set up as you minus RH TD( V&H TD with slip ons) switch to PCIII(changed from SERT could not find a tuner that could dial it in)and numbers are HP 91 and torque 101. I know the guy at Bumpus appears to be a magician, but are the V&H really limiting the torque number for the cam that much? John

103_RK · « **Reply #25 on:** May 03, 2007, 12:41:11 PM »

Thanks for the reply, I know it seems unreasonable to worry about such a small rpm range. A lot of my riding is in this rang. I'm glad to hear how happy you are with the 575's. I probably will end up getting them, I just wanted to hear how happy people are with the low range since I have seen good numbers on several dyno chart that had lower numbers at the 2000 to 2500 rpm range than the stock cams had.

Thanks again

110tHunDer · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2007, 07:52:07 PM »

Quote from: otophile on May 03, 2007, 09:13:21 AM

Brian,
couldn't agree more abouth the 575 cams. although they are not a panacea for performance the midrange with full 2 up riding loads the midrange torque is undeniable. On aside note, I have same set up as you minus RH TD( V&H TD with slip ons) switch to PCIII(changed from SERT could not find a tuner that could dial it in)and numbers are HP 91 and torque 101. I know the guy at Bumpus appears to be a magician, but are the V&H really limiting the torque number for the cam that much? John

John, your numbers are more like what we've seen with stock bikes that have just air cleaner and exhaust mods. Did you have a baseline run done before the mods so you can compare the increase? It could just be that you had the bike on a pessimistic dyno and that the actual increase you got with the cams is right in line with everyone, or almost everyone, else and that the numbers would be higher on another dyno. I probably wouldn't get too hung up on the lower than normal numbers as long as the bike is running good and feels stronger than before you did the cams.

Also, if it's buggin' ya, you could see if my theory is correct by having a baseline run done on another dyno. It'd be a lot cheaper than throwing a set of Rineharts at it first.

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:50:07 PM »

Quote from: 103tHunDer on May 03, 2007, 07:52:07 PM

John, your numbers are more like what we've seen with stock bikes that have just air cleaner and exhaust mods. Did you have a baseline run done before the mods so you can compare the increase? It could just be that you had the bike on a pessimistic dyno and that the actual increase you got with the cams is right in line with everyone, or almost everyone, else and that the numbers would be higher on another dyno. I probably wouldn't get too hung up on the lower than normal numbers as long as the bike is running good and feels stronger than before you did the cams.

Also, if it's buggin' ya, you could see if my theory is correct by having a baseline run done on another dyno. It'd be a lot cheaper than throwing a set of Rineharts at it first.

Brian,
When i put SE AC, SERT, and V&H slip ons the dyno was 87HP and 93 Torque, I have had re dynoed twice after VH TD, cam changes. first with SERT was 82HP and 95 torque, and finally was convinced that nobody could dial in a SERT put on PCIII with above numbers. It does run better since retuned with PCIII but I guess like you said maybe its a guy thing the numbers ( you know like mines bigger than yours kind of thing). But sometimes I wonder if the enemy of good is better and should just ride and enjoy instead of fixating on numbers. I guess what I really need is to find a primo tuner ( like Bumpus) and let them play with it see what its got and put the issue to bed ( maybe a ride to Memphis is in my future!) thanks for the help, JOHN

Fired00d · « **Reply #28 on:** May 03, 2007, 08:56:51 PM »

John,
Most important thing is does it run better then before mods? Dyno's are so different, unless you are running on the same dyno/same time (temp/humidity/etc) as so and so that has higher numbers then you, then you really can't compare them to each other. If you feel you have more power then before mods, and your bike is running good then enjoy it. If you get caught up on the numbers thing and not running on the same dyno at the same time then you are doing yourself an injustice.

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

Twolanerider · « **Reply #29 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:08:51 PM »

Beagle has a set of Hookers that might be offered up cheaply to help out.....

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:13:28 PM »

Gary,
i appreciate the reassurance. I guess the real problem is that I have no confidence in the tuners. The first post mod was done by dealer, i don't know much dyno tuning other than what i have learned here. I believe that the dealer downloaded a pre set map , and did it not run right. So when took to another after market shop, they have little experience with SERT and use mostly PCIII (they did not try to sell me a PCIII, but told with the PC and dyno they could do it for under $500, but would take 10 to 12 hrs to do a SERT map, making the price a wash).These guys actually took a lot of time talking to me, and got the numbers I talked about ( i will did out paper work and take to office and scan in the dyno sheets, may be everyone can then see the numbers include AF ratios). Maybe my expectations were too high and I am worhsipping at the alter of the almighty numbers game, but I guess to stroke my XY ego i will try to get bike to Jim at bragging rights in clermont, fl for the best two out three ( he is mentioned in high regard on this site) John

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:16:07 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on May 03, 2007, 09:08:51 PM

Beagle has a set of Hookers that might be offered up cheaply to help out.....

Don,
after reading his thread it is what got me looking into the performance numbers in the first place!!! ( So i guess i should blame him for this recent stretch of paranoia

) john

SBB · « **Reply #32 on:** May 03, 2007, 09:25:19 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on May 03, 2007, 09:08:51 PM

Beagle has a set of Hookers that might be offered up cheaply to help out.....

T/L

Just glad you said a set instead of a pair!

Rhino · « **Reply #33 on:** May 06, 2007, 01:00:27 AM »

Hello All,

Limiting my post due to serious computer issues. The new one here is Vista etc, and spending hours tuning it. I am not happy with BillyGates. Anyway, 575, you gotta rip the throttle more from a stop, and learn how to feather the clutch differently than stock cam. 1/2 second later, your flyin in the high up torque range. It is faster, but different from the get go, AND the shift points. You have to learn how to ride this cam, but it is rewarding once you figure it out. Nothing like it in 4th, over 3500 it sets you back in the seat a bit more than stock, and keeps on going. Let's see 5th was 123mph, or was it 6th on I-4 yesterday........was going all the way till I was running out of rooom. But it was still pulling. Scary at them thar speeds when it wiggles.

PS: I am faster than AJ now, read above.

Rhino(a575wasstillnotgoodenoughwhatwillhedonext)

kojak · « **Reply #34 on:** May 06, 2007, 01:23:53 PM »

103-RK,
You are on the right track about mid-range torque. On a touring bike, I like my tq to be in a flat, stable curve by 2500 rpm. You will do most of your riding +/- 500 rpm around that area. Your bike should not be lugging at 2000 rpm unless you are on a steep incline etc. It really doesnt matter what your tq is at 3500-5000 rpm for all practical purposes. What happens with cams that have higher lift/duration than stock, the overlap between intake and exhaust valves will increase and will rob your engine of power unless you increase the compression to combat reversion.

103_RK · « **Reply #35 on:** May 07, 2007, 06:37:33 AM »

Kojak, that is where I was thinking the torque needed to be as well. Apparently there is so much gain in the 3000 rpm range that it is worth the tradeoff. My bike runs great with the stock cams. I have the feul injection dialed in (I bought a twinscan II+ unit to use O2 sensors and get it as good as I can get it). I thought about the T-Max setup but thought I'd still like to have it dialed in with the SERT system as this would be more likely to not void my warrenty. I'm still deciding about the cam. THe .002 runout measurment concerns me as well. I wouldn't want to split the cases and spend the extra monsy on a bike that runs great. I have time, there is no rush, so I will take my time and not rush into a cam change. I can always buy a new tesioner and check it for wear every year or two.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #36 on:** May 07, 2007, 08:06:09 AM »

103_RK,

I am interested in how your going about tuning your bike, can you explain for me how your going to setup your A/F and volumetrics to do your tune?

An example you have set all your air fuel in advanced mode to 13.7 to one and are getting your volumetrics correct so that you can then go back to your stock map by setting a baseline after you have changed out the volumetrics to the right ones.

Another example is you took the stock map set all a/f to where you want it to be and are going to run the bike this way?

Thanks,

103_RK · « **Reply #37 on:** May 07, 2007, 12:30:19 PM »

Unbalanced, I set the afr to where I want to run the bike. I made several runs with the Twinscan II+ connected. I used the twinscan II software to look at the required VE adjustments for the 5 or so averaged runs. The software allows you to look at multiple runs at the same time. I then made the reccommended VE table corrections and the bike runs great. Better than it ever has. I did not do the 1/4 mile type runs because that is not how I normally run my bike and it seems to run great wide open anyway. I liked the idea of having O2 sensors to indicate the actual AFR so that using the SERT to make the adjustments, I feel I would have a better chance at getting problems fixed under my warrenty. If I later go with the T-Max, I can remove it and reinstall the stock ECM. I know I am probably kidding myself about the warrenty but I purchased a 7 year $1300 one and I want to use it if I have problems.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #38 on:** May 07, 2007, 01:25:26 PM »

103_RK,

So to understand better what your doing your going cell by cell and checking what the A/F is so that you can eliminate the unstable data and choosing 5 samples or 15 samples to get a better avg for your output and are you using a manual afr to go against or putting in a target afr ?

Glad your happy with how it is running,

103_RK · « **Reply #39 on:** May 08, 2007, 06:20:45 AM »

I have a target afr and Daytona twin tec has a ve correction table so that I can look at several runs at the same time and put in the required VE correction to achieve the target afr. I then go cell by cell and correct the ve numbers.

Author Topic: Andrews 37G or Zippers 575 (Read 13020 times)

Rhino